BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

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Queequeg
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BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:50 pm

So, he's officially announced that he's running for president.

To give an idea of the enthusiasm behind him,he raised almost $6,000,000 from 225,000 donors in the first 24 hours after his announcement. Mostly individuals making modest contributions. That works out to about $18 per donor.

Just to contrast, Kamala Harris, the apparent choice of many Democratic big wigs who had fancy choreographed announcement raised $1.5 million from 38,000 donors. That breaks down to about $40 per donor.

Let's discuss Bernie.

I'll start the discussion with this:

For me, if it aint Bernie, its Pete Buttigieg.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by justsit » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:10 pm

Fool rushes in here...There's another forum I frequent, not Buddhist, 8 million members mostly women ages 18-65. A similar thread about Bernie was opened there yesterday and the posts are running roughly 20-1 against. Comments are "too old" "another old white man" "we need new blood" "has-been go home" "takes Dem money and won't join the party? No." Quite a few mention voting for Bernie in the primaries last time then going on to vote for Stein, and won't vote for Bernie again. Ouch.

They want women, POC, young. Pete Buttigieg's name comes up, Beto maybe, nothing for Warren or AOC. How that will play out in the real world? :shrug: It's early days yet.

Please don't shoot the messenger. :smile:

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:13 pm

It's good news IMO.

I really want the American left to move back towards principled stands in favor of economic justice and fairness, those themes are all but absent from the campaigns of most Democrats since the Clinton years. They've basically become a business party every bit as much as the Republicans, only with links to different industry, a little more conciliatory to poor people, and they pay patronizing lip service to the minorities especially screwed under our system. Despite this, I don't think the actual decisions and functional politics of mainstream Democrats benefit "the little guy" (including the people who are really screwed/threatened) that much more than Republicans these days, it's just that now that the Republican Party has basically become openly racist, increasingly authoritarian and kleptocratic in the era of Trump, the bar has shifted. I get that people want PoC, LGBT etc. representation, but representation of one's identity doesn't guarantee jack squat, and there are some completely ineffectual LGBT, PoC politicians. It's like the left no longer understands the whole "common good" idea any more, and thinks representation is magic.

Can you imagine Kamala Harris campaigning to reign in sprawling, monopolistic industries or pushing for real social programs? I can't. Did you see Howard Schultz? I mean I think he was mulling running as an independent, but that dude typifies the mainstream of today's Democratic party, basically anyone with any hope for real, substantive policy change is 'radical left' to a guy like that. With friends like those, who needs enemies?

I think Bernie, or someone like him is really need to bring back a left wing with actual principles to the mainstream dialogue, we need people injecting those ideas into the debate, even if they don't win anything ever. I smile every time I see someone freak out about him or AOC, talk about how "idealistic" it is to not expect to be in debt for half your freaking life in order to go to college, or to expect enormous Tech companies to contribute to the communities they screw up, it is a good sign that such talk panics people.

At some point people will realize that expecting to provide everyone with healthcare and education without them having to choose between food, medicine, and housing or be saddled with debt forever is not a "radical idea".

The other part of this whole thing I often find silly is that so many people just want to know who can "beat trump". I get it, he's awful, but without new ideas on the left, and a long term movement towards a more engaged, principled egalitarian (i.e. "bottom up") politics on the left, another Trump will just come along and leverage the same forces that Trump did to win. So without a real sea change in the Democratic party, some half-ass corporate Democrat "beating Trump" is #1 unlikely, #2 probably just a Pyrrhic victory anyway.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Arnoud » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:25 pm

The couple comments I heard are:

- too old
- grand ideas no detailed plans (in contrast to Warren)

I personally would like a Warren/Bernie ticket. But I am not allowed to vote.

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Nemo » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:47 pm

He has the Black Socialists of America Seal of Approval. So I'm in.

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:26 pm

From an outside observer, Bernie Sanders seems at best a quixotic choice. He is too old, for starters. That's not ageism, it actuarial - the odds of a guy at his age enduring the rigours of office for a full term. And he's never going to impress the business-oriented voters. So to me, he represents a noble failure, misplaced idealism, wishful thinking. Democrats really have to rally behind a candidate with a chance of winning.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:29 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:26 pm
From an outside observer, Bernie Sanders seems at best a quixotic choice. He is too old, for starters. That's not ageism, it actuarial - the odds of a guy at his age enduring the rigours of office for a full term. And he's never going to impress the business-oriented voters. So to me, he represents a noble failure, misplaced idealism, wishful thinking.
Wishful thinking is exactly what's needed. The self-described "pragmatists" have made an absolute disgrace of things.

Secondly, some of what Bernie is asking already exists in your own country (amongst others), a little silly to accuse him of "misplaced idealism" when some of his platform is simply trying to get us to achieve parity with other first world nations.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by anjali » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:34 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:50 pm
For me, if it aint Bernie, its Pete Buttigieg.
I've seen Buttigieg interviewed a couple of times now, and I like what I've seen so far. I'd definitely vote for the guy.
Image

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:38 pm

justsit wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:10 pm
Fool rushes in here...There's another forum I frequent, not Buddhist, 8 million members mostly women ages 18-65. A similar thread about Bernie was opened there yesterday and the posts are running roughly 20-1 against. Comments are "too old" "another old white man" "we need new blood" "has-been go home" "takes Dem money and won't join the party? No." Quite a few mention voting for Bernie in the primaries last time then going on to vote for Stein, and won't vote for Bernie again. Ouch.

They want women, POC, young. Pete Buttigieg's name comes up, Beto maybe, nothing for Warren or AOC. How that will play out in the real world? :shrug: It's early days yet.
Not surprised.

I could say so much in response to those remarks, but what's the point?

This sums it up:

Image
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:48 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:29 pm
Wishful thinking is exactly what's needed. The self-described "pragmatists" have made an absolute disgrace of things.
Exactly.

We're not just trying to change laws.

The social contract is broken. We need a full court press to reset it. Right now, Bernie is the only one who clearly identifies the problem and is committed to do something about it. Everyone else is trying to please the corporate class in one degree or another, sending dog whistles to Wall Street while campaigning on populist platforms. The exceptions - Bernie, Warren (and Buttigieg - dude is awesome. Between him and AOC, future has a little hope.)
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:05 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:48 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:29 pm
Wishful thinking is exactly what's needed. The self-described "pragmatists" have made an absolute disgrace of things.
Exactly.

We're not just trying to change laws.

The social contract is broken. We need a full court press to reset it. Right now, Bernie is the only one who clearly identifies the problem and is committed to do something about it. Everyone else is trying to please the corporate class in one degree or another, sending dog whistles to Wall Street while campaigning on populist platforms. The exceptions - Bernie, Warren (and Buttigieg - dude is awesome. Between him and AOC, future has a little hope.)
Right?

Can you imagine what it would be like to have something like a civic culture here, or just real public works and jobs ala the CCC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_ ... tion_Corps)?

All the Green New Deal talk may strike people as "idealistic", but if it is idealistic, it is precisely the kind of idealism that we need right now.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:14 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote: The self-described "pragmatists" have made an absolute disgrace of things.
Actually I think they've done a damn fine job of coralling the rogue idiot in the Oval Office and preventing him from causing a major catastrophe. The fact that America/The World is still functioning at all is a testimony to their effectiveness. (oh, and by that I *definitely" don't mean the GOP. I mean the public servants, office-holders and institutions.)
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:27 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:05 pm
Can you imagine what it would be like to have something like a civic culture here, or just real public works and jobs ala the CCC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_ ... tion_Corps)?

All the Green New Deal talk may strike people as "idealistic", but if it is idealistic, it is precisely the kind of idealism that we need right now.
More than idealism - I think its necessary. The wealth distribution system in this country is broken AND there is a lot of work we need to do to fix the infrastructure in this country. Get the wealth spread around by putting people to work and building things that will benefit everyone for generations to come. In the meantime, the kids of the people who get to work building the 21st c. infrastructure, we need to educate and train them to live in that new system. That's aside from the existential threat not going green poses for us.

Are there any Roosevelts around that we can run? TR was a pretty good, visionary president, too. Had the Square Deal.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:56 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:14 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: The self-described "pragmatists" have made an absolute disgrace of things.
Actually I think they've done a damn fine job of coralling the rogue idiot in the Oval Office and preventing him from causing a major catastrophe. The fact that America/The World is still functioning at all is a testimony to their effectiveness. (oh, and by that I *definitely" don't mean the GOP. I mean the public servants, office-holders and institutions.)
In a way you have a point. And in a way, I think you might just be buying into the POTUS hype machine. I think one of the things Trump finds so frustrating is that being president has a lot of power, far from total power. The areas where presidents can exercise power is discrete, and even there its limited by the DC bureaucrats. And if that letter a few months back is real, he's got sabateurs in his office.

He did get out played on this border wall thing. What made that seem so extraordinary though it was the first big check we had seen on Trump. He had enablers before... but, you know, how effective are a bunch of sycophantic suck ups? They only jump when you tell them to.

Speaking of sycophantic suck ups...
Outside the US, you may not have heard of this guy... he is truly a silly, ridiculous human being.



This was him a few weeks ago.



Ordinarily I would feel bad about making fun of someone's insecurity, but this guy is so horrible, barely a human being, that I'm OK with picking at his emotional wounds.
Look at the hair. This guy is a fascist nightmare.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by justsit » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:23 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:38 pm
justsit wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:10 pm
...
Not surprised.

I could say so much in response to those remarks, but what's the point?
Yes, I have a pretty good idea of what you'd say.

In any case, I'm curious as to what you think Bernie will bring to the table that will convince disgruntled moderate Republicans to vote for him (of course, assuming here that Trump runs again).

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by 如傑優婆塞 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:55 am

phpBB [video]

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:07 am

Really looking forward to seeing Kamala Harris et al. ramp up the red baiting as things move forward :|
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Queequeg » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:17 am

justsit wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:23 am
In any case, I'm curious as to what you think Bernie will bring to the table that will convince disgruntled moderate Republicans to vote for him (of course, assuming here that Trump runs again).
I don't know. If you figure it out, though...

This is what I get from talking to my father who is a life long Republican. I've been working on him for a while. He came of age when Eisenhower was president and he's got it in his mind that that's what the Republican party really is. Pretty moderate. He's anti-monopoly, believes in taxes to stop an aristocracy from forming. Believes that life can be tough, but as long as the rules are fair, then we are left to rise and fall according to our just desserts.

The fairness is what I dig at. I point out that the game is rigged, that the wealthy with their armies of lawyers and consultants and PACs have devised funnels to get all the money in their pockets. That they play the social issues card and get people blind with rage so they don't notice that they're taking people's livelihoods. He's fine with people getting rich, its when they cheat that it gets to him. Its a low boil. He's even handed... like Ike. Doesn't freak out.

This is what Trump understands. He tapped that sense that the game is not fair. Instead of laying it out like Bernie does, and explaining that we fight inequality by forcing the wealth of our country to get spread around more fairly, Trump gets the easy, emotional stuff with the race baiting.

Other pitches - we want young people to be prepared with a good education and feel free and confident to go take risks - not immediately start worrying about health insurance and loans repayments (we talk about colleges but also two year colleges and trade schools - not everyone needs an anthropology degree. Many would be fine with technical degrees that get them solid jobs). I explain that we made a huge policy mistake by shifting the burden for college education from the collective (through generous subsidies of public university systems and things like the GI bill) onto individuals who are required to take out loans. What we did was just create another opportunity for banks to make loans, so Wall Steeters could make money off it.

I point out that healthcare is ridiculously expensive because we have insurance companies as middle men taking huge cuts. Also, I admit, my industry, law, needs to accept tort reform. We need to ease up on liability, do something to discourage the nuisance law suits. He gets his health through the VA and despite the bureaucratic nature of it, he's happy with the care he gets, so he sees how socialized medicine can work.

This is kind of maybe an oversimplification, but I get the sense that Republicans tend to fear a little more. They're also people who put duty and loyalty at the top of the list, they understand service to others through institutions like the military and police. A lot of positives to work with.

The wild card here is race. That is the poison we have to deal with. When that comes up, everyone goes crazy and loses their mind on all sides of the issue. That's a whole different thing.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Daizan » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:35 am

I think Alexandria-Ocasio Cortez should run, just to completely freakout conservatives. :tongue:

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Queequeg
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Re: BERNIE! BERNIE! BERNIE!

Post by Queequeg » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:38 am

如傑優婆塞 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:55 am
phpBB [video]
I like Ana Navarro, but she's basically a DC consultant. She doesn't have a pulse on what's going on out there in the country. That's why she was blindsided by Trump's rise. Abby Huntsman... Don't know much about her but she seems like a light weight. Joy Behar is full establishment Democrat. She's so New York. I get the sense Meghan McCain would like to not be a Republican anymore, but she's gotta keep carrying her dad's banner. I don't know who the other woman is. Where's Whoopi?

When Kamala Harris and Corey Booker and Kirsten Gillibrand start with their focus group tested lines at the debates, Bernie will do what he did all along, "Let us be clear..." and then proceed to just keep coming back and hammering the same basic theme -

The system is broken. We need to take drastic measures.

And he's going to rise and fall with that message. The rest of the field will play that stupid horse race thing, managed by consultants, constantly trying to divine what voters want through polls and focus groups.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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