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recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:57 pm
by treehuggingoctopus
The leader of South Korea's biggest Buddhist order has apologised after monks were filmed apparently gambling illegally. Six leaders of the Jogye order offered to resign on Thursday after the secretly-filmed footage emerged. Film apparently showing monks playing poker at a luxury hotel, some smoking and drinking, was aired on television....
More here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18030813" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:18 pm
by Malcolm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
The leader of South Korea's biggest Buddhist order has apologised after monks were filmed apparently gambling illegally. Six leaders of the Jogye order offered to resign on Thursday after the secretly-filmed footage emerged. Film apparently showing monks playing poker at a luxury hotel, some smoking and drinking, was aired on television....
More here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18030813" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ha! Back in the early '90's there was a strip joint (The Naked Eye) where some strippers that were friends of mine used to work in Boston in the Combat Zone. One night a friend and I headed down there for a drink and five Korean monks, in their monastic dress, who were staying at the Cambridge Zen Center walked out of the place as we were walking in. Our friend, who has dancing that evening, told us they had left her the best tip she had had so far that night.

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:29 pm
by treehuggingoctopus
Ah, the joys of monasticism :)

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:14 pm
by Grigoris
"Self repent on their behalf"???
My question is: where were the hookers?
:tongue:
Oh well, what a surprise, Buddhists are just normal people too!
:namaste:

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:37 pm
by Blue Garuda
I'm not very familiar with this sect.

Are they priests rather than monks and would they have taken different vows?

Apparently the gambling was a breach of their vows,but what about the drinking.

The offenders have 'offered' to resign and the head is offering 'self repentance'.

So none of the offenders has resigned or offered their individual repentance?

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:43 pm
by mindyourmind
People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:58 pm
by Malcolm
mindyourmind wrote:People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:

I know, what is the world coming too, meat eating, and now this. :shock:

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:58 pm
by Blue Garuda
mindyourmind wrote:People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:
That's the 4NT and 8FP down the gurlger then.

I've seen what happens to disciples whose gurus crash and burn through sex, alcohol etc.

One person's 'fun' may be a source of suffering for them, but a source of devastation for their disciples.

For that reason it's not something I can see as a source of humour.

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
by NIRMAL2
Due to the first seed perhaps.They can change or pretend to change, but it'll always be there.

We should keep our brighter side wide,

To tick off our darker whole,

As there's a Jekyll and Hyde,

Who lives in every soul.

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:47 pm
by mindyourmind
Blue Garuda wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:
That's the 4NT and 8FP down the gurlger then.

I've seen what happens to disciples whose gurus crash and burn through sex, alcohol etc.

One person's 'fun' may be a source of suffering for them, but a source of devastation for their disciples.

For that reason it's not something I can see as a source of humour.
I understand that, and I agree with you. I am also however hoping that those disciples can learn something from this, maybe a lighter side, maybe some funny side, maybe a teaching on letting go of "truths" that can help them on their path. Maybe.

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:35 pm
by Blue Garuda
mindyourmind wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:
That's the 4NT and 8FP down the gurlger then.

I've seen what happens to disciples whose gurus crash and burn through sex, alcohol etc.

One person's 'fun' may be a source of suffering for them, but a source of devastation for their disciples.

For that reason it's not something I can see as a source of humour.
I understand that, and I agree with you. I am also however hoping that those disciples can learn something from this, maybe a lighter side, maybe some funny side, maybe a teaching on letting go of "truths" that can help them on their path. Maybe.
:anjali:

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:41 am
by Indrajala
Namdrol wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:

I know, what is the world coming too, meat eating, and now this. :shock:
Historically this kind of behaviour has never been uncommon in Buddhism. Theravada, East Asia or Tibetan, this sort of thing happens. It makes you wonder though about the ultimate value of such institutions. Is it really about renunciation from samsaric ways, or something else?

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:48 am
by Blue Garuda
Huseng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:

I know, what is the world coming too, meat eating, and now this. :shock:
Historically this kind of behaviour has never been uncommon in Buddhism. Theravada, East Asia or Tibetan, this sort of thing happens. It makes you wonder though about the ultimate value of such institutions. Is it really about renunciation from samsaric ways, or something else?
I think it has more to do with individuals who are persuaded that the 8FP is not necessary for them. because they are somehow already so enlightened that it will not be detrimental to them or their followers. It seems to me that some gurus have persuaded others that somehow there is a Buddhist path which is just sooooo advanced it can ignore unwholesome behaviour and the 8FP completely. These monks are weak and foolish, others are potentially much more harmful.

As I wrote before, if they want to harm themselves it is sad, but the harm they do to their disciples is tragic.

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:10 pm
by Indrajala
Blue Garuda wrote: I think it has more to do with individuals who are persuaded that the 8FP is not necessary for them. because they are somehow already so enlightened that it will not be detrimental to them or their followers. It seems to me that some gurus have persuaded others that somehow there is a Buddhist path which is just sooooo advanced it can ignore unwholesome behaviour and the 8FP completely. These monks are weak and foolish, others are potentially much more harmful.

As I wrote before, if they want to harm themselves it is sad, but the harm they do to their disciples is tragic.
I think the main problem lay in the reality that many monastics are in their positions as a result of having decided on it as a career path, rather than as a means of overcoming samsara.

Institutionalized Buddhism generally offers a comfortable life to those who would enter as lifelong clergy. This means you probably won't get renunciate yogis running day to day operations and having access to money.

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:19 pm
by kirtu
Huseng wrote: Institutionalized Buddhism generally offers a comfortable life to those who would enter as lifelong clergy. This means you probably won't get renunciate yogis running day to day operations and having access to money.
Renunciate yogis - are they any more than a myth or a memory nowadays?

Of course I exaggerate a bit - I'm certain that there are some renunciate yogis in the Jogye order. But they not likely to attain operational positions as you note.

Kirt

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:25 pm
by Indrajala
kirtu wrote: Renunciate yogis - are they any more than a myth or a memory nowadays?

Of course I exaggerate a bit - I'm certain that there are some renunciate yogis in the Jogye order. But they not likely to attain operational positions as you note.

Kirt
In my experience most Buddhist organizations will have a few yogis somewhere hidden away, but they're entirely out of the public spotlight for obvious reasons and probably will never be known or in a position of power. They are renunciates, largely unknown to the world and not interested in involving themselves in bureaucratic activities.

Nevertheless, they are such a small minority that they hardly count when evaluating circumstances of Buddhist communities.

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:45 pm
by kirtu
Huseng wrote: In my experience most Buddhist organizations will have a few yogis somewhere hidden away, but they're entirely out of the public spotlight for obvious reasons and probably will never be known or in a position of power. They are renunciates, largely unknown to the world and not interested in involving themselves in bureaucratic activities.

Nevertheless, they are such a small minority that they hardly count when evaluating circumstances of Buddhist communities.
The candles are about to be blown out. Renunciate yogis need to take a more proactive stance in order to change their environment and organizations.

Kirt

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:56 pm
by Indrajala
kirtu wrote: The candles are about to be blown out. Renunciate yogis need to take a more proactive stance in order to change their environment and organizations.

Kirt
Well there have been some who have done this. Master Sheng Yen was in solitary retreat for six years before going out, teaching, reforming and building up Dharma Drum Mountain. Ajahn Brahm is another good example of a yogi who has also has taken up a position of leadership and even formed a new community.

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:29 pm
by Grigoris
kirtu wrote:The candles are about to be blown out. Renunciate yogis need to take a more proactive stance in order to change their environment and organizations.
That's pretty difficult for them to do considering they are normally far, far away from luxury hotels, tobacco stores and the company of gamblers! I think historically renunciate yogis have always been the minority in religious organisations (of any demoniation).
:namaste:

Re: recent Jogye controversy

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:30 am
by Rakz
Living it up 8-)