Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 1057
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Anders » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:42 pm

heart wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:Heart wrote: "There is absolutely no contradiction between Dzogchen practice and sadhana practice. Dzogchen is not Zen."

In reference to Zen, what is meant by the reference to Zen contradicting sadhana practice?


As we all know the main practice of Zen is staring in to a wall, without moving, in silence, that is not the definition of Dzogchen practice. But of course it can be practiced like that also. Zen practitioners think that sadhana practice is a kind of fantasy.

/magnus


Is it really necessary to caricature another tradition in your efforts to clarify your own.

Maybe you should ask a Zen practitioner if he agrees with your presentation.

Fwiw, most traditional Zen does have some form of sadhana.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3841
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dalai Lama's daily practice - specific details

Postby heart » Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:00 pm

Anders wrote:
heart wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:Heart wrote: "There is absolutely no contradiction between Dzogchen practice and sadhana practice. Dzogchen is not Zen."

In reference to Zen, what is meant by the reference to Zen contradicting sadhana practice?


As we all know the main practice of Zen is staring in to a wall, without moving, in silence, that is not the definition of Dzogchen practice. But of course it can be practiced like that also. Zen practitioners think that sadhana practice is a kind of fantasy.

/magnus


Is it really necessary to caricature another tradition in your efforts to clarify your own.

Maybe you should ask a Zen practitioner if he agrees with your presentation.

Fwiw, most traditional Zen does have some form of sadhana.


Sorry if I offended you, but it isn't a caricature or a description just an observation. There is of course a lot to be added to that picture but it wasn't necessary for making my point.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 23333
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Malcolm » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:46 pm

Adamantine wrote:This series of articles explores early dzogchen and how it was originally inseparable from sadhana practice. Seems like essential reading for anyone following this thread:


This assumes that the traditional account of the spread of Dzogchen in Tibet is a Tibetan fabrication...

[cue: fabrications are really terrible, aren't they.]
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3543
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Adamantine » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:13 am

I don't really see a contradiction
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 23333
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Malcolm » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:00 pm

Adamantine wrote:I don't really see a contradiction


Well, I think it is false assessment.

Why? Because we have evidence from Mañjuśrīkīrti's Ornamenting the Essence of General Rites of All Secrets that there was a movement in India, led by Śṛī Siṅgha (mentioned by name, along with Bhikṣuni Nanda, Padmasambhava's teacher as well, and other masters), who argued that creation stage practices was taught only to reject annihilationism, and for those who believed a dependent originated result was accomplished through dependent origination, and for those worldly people who were terrified of the profound meaning. However they argued that such practice was incapable of producing the result because a result cannot arise from a dissimilar cause.

Indeed, Tsongkhapa cites this argument in his sNgags rim chen mo in an implicit refutation of Dzogchen.

The basic argument is that creation stage practices were unnecessary, and that it was sufficient to rely solely on completion stage practices.

The counter position to the above is that the natural purity of all phenomena was incapable of stopping false conceptuality and that buddhahood was necessarily predicated on the accumulation of merit, that the creation stage was needed to abandon ordinary vision, and that it was necessary for accomplished the rūpakāyas in order to benefit sentient beings.

The passage is interesting because it is just about the only passage in all the gsar ma period translations from Sanskrit which address the Great Perfection movement in India (albeit through the names of its promulgators rather than specific texts) and its positions, and contrasts this with what we now take to be the more conventional Vajrayāna approach.

In other words, I don't see much evidence that Vairocana, for example, was collecting lots of deity practices in Indian and spreading them among Tibetans. While it is certainly true there is a Vimalamitra tradition of Vajrakilaya, and while it is certainly true that Dzogchen can be practiced by people engaged in the creation stage and other kinds of rites, it is also the case that we have examples such as Pang Mipham Gonpo who appear to have practiced only Dzogchen.

In short, despite SVS's lengthy, interesting and erudite articles, I do not think it is accurate to conclude that Dzogchen was necessarily an adjunct to the practice of the two stages, and I think there is ample evidence to the contrary.

I think the more accurate position to take (based for example, on Mañjuśrīmitra's Meditation of Bodhicitta) is that buddhahood could also be accomplished indirectly as well, through mantra practice, as he says:

    Further, because the teacher has declared that awakening can be correctly grasped with a symbol,
    in that case, this is the basis of the meditation that generates awakened mind.
    After the three samadhis are stable, and after binding three symbolic mudras,
    generate the mind as the great dharmamudra and meditate the recitation of the essence [mantra].

Mipham, summarizing Mañjuśrīmitra's autocommentary, adds:

    If it is asked, “What is the method of realizing the definitive meaning through the indirect method?,” since nonactivity is illustrated with the activity of fabricated efforts, like pointing to the moon with the finger, also awakened mind correctly grasped through a symbol will accomplish awakening, because the Bhagavan Buddha, the teacher of devas and humans, has declared that it is “great awakening.” Any unfortunate one who conceptualizes entities should make efforts in the indirect method of realization.

Thus, I argue that "early" Dzogchen had nothing to do with sadhana practice at all, and this is proven quite handily by looking at the the bodhicitta texts (should one assume they represent "early" Dzogchen). Does this mean that Dzogchen masters ruled out an indirect path for unfortunates? No. But it does mean the premise "early dzogchen...was originally inseparable from sadhana practice" is false.

M
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

Justmeagain
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Dalai Lama's daily practice - specific details

Postby Justmeagain » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:19 pm

Matt J wrote:No, that's not right. Zazen is practiced differently in different Zen schools. Some forms of zazen are more active than others --- some even involve making different sounds. And not all Zen practitioners face the wall. This sounds more like a caricature of Zen than anything else. And there is more to Zen than zazen, such as chanting, kinhin, oriyoki, and many other things.

heart wrote:As we all know the main practice of Zen is staring in to a wall, without moving, in silence, that is not the definition of Dzogchen practice. But of course it can be practiced like that also. Zen practitioners think that sadhana practice is a kind of fantasy.
/magnus


:good:

KrisW
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby KrisW » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:I think the more accurate position to take (based for example, on Mañjuśrīmitra's Meditation of Bodhicitta) is that buddhahood could also be accomplished indirectly as well, through mantra practice, as he says:

    Further, because the teacher has declared that awakening can be correctly grasped with a symbol,
    in that case, this is the basis of the meditation that generates awakened mind.
    After the three samadhis are stable, and after binding three symbolic mudras,
    generate the mind as the great dharmamudra and meditate the recitation of the essence [mantra].

Mipham, summarizing Mañjuśrīmitra's autocommentary, adds:

    If it is asked, “What is the method of realizing the definitive meaning through the indirect method?,” since nonactivity is illustrated with the activity of fabricated efforts, like pointing to the moon with the finger, also awakened mind correctly grasped through a symbol will accomplish awakening, because the Bhagavan Buddha, the teacher of devas and humans, has declared that it is “great awakening.” Any unfortunate one who conceptualizes entities should make efforts in the indirect method of realization.



M


This is similar to what Dudjom Lingpa says in Vajra Essence 182-184

"For the direct identification within your own being, you first establish all phenomenon included in samsara and nirvana as emptiness. Once you have ascertained them as the displays of the space of ultimate reality, you identify this state as the great revelation and apprehend your own natute. As a result, you naturally settle in ground pristine awareness as the great freedom from extremes. This is the swift path, the yana of the great perfection.

In reliance upon the relative, effortful path--as a means for leading beings to ultimate, effortless absolute space-- the kayas and facests of primordial consciousness of the ground sugatagarbha are generated as signs. And many sadhanas involving visualisations and recitations are taught in accordance with the many accounts of the names and meanings of deities to be revealed, buddhafields, palaces, teachers and retinues
All accounts assering that by striving in meditative practice you will reach some vast region somewhere else, called a buddhafield, are called paths of expedient means."
The sage taught this entire tenet system for the sake of wisdom; therefore, with the desire to ward off suffering, one should develop wisdom.
~Śāntideva~

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 23333
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:59 pm

RikudouSennin wrote:
Malcolm wrote:I think the more accurate position to take (based for example, on Mañjuśrīmitra's Meditation of Bodhicitta) is that buddhahood could also be accomplished indirectly as well, through mantra practice, as he says:

    Further, because the teacher has declared that awakening can be correctly grasped with a symbol,
    in that case, this is the basis of the meditation that generates awakened mind.
    After the three samadhis are stable, and after binding three symbolic mudras,
    generate the mind as the great dharmamudra and meditate the recitation of the essence [mantra].

Mipham, summarizing Mañjuśrīmitra's autocommentary, adds:

    If it is asked, “What is the method of realizing the definitive meaning through the indirect method?,” since nonactivity is illustrated with the activity of fabricated efforts, like pointing to the moon with the finger, also awakened mind correctly grasped through a symbol will accomplish awakening, because the Bhagavan Buddha, the teacher of devas and humans, has declared that it is “great awakening.” Any unfortunate one who conceptualizes entities should make efforts in the indirect method of realization.



M


This is similar to what Dudjom Lingpa says in Vajra Essence 182-184

"For the direct identification within your own being, you first establish all phenomenon included in samsara and nirvana as emptiness. Once you have ascertained them as the displays of the space of ultimate reality, you identify this state as the great revelation and apprehend your own natute. As a result, you naturally settle in ground pristine awareness as the great freedom from extremes. This is the swift path, the yana of the great perfection.

In reliance upon the relative, effortful path--as a means for leading beings to ultimate, effortless absolute space-- the kayas and facests of primordial consciousness of the ground sugatagarbha are generated as signs. And many sadhanas involving visualisations and recitations are taught in accordance with the many accounts of the names and meanings of deities to be revealed, buddhafields, palaces, teachers and retinues
All accounts assering that by striving in meditative practice you will reach some vast region somewhere else, called a buddhafield, are called paths of expedient means."


Yes.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

Sādhaka
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Sādhaka » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
RikudouSennin wrote:...All accounts assering that by striving in meditative practice you will reach some vast region somewhere else, called a buddhafield, are called paths of expedient means."


Yes.


Wait a minute.

I thought that Buddhafields are mentioned in even the highest (?) class(es) of texts, which are supposed to be definitive.

Dudjom Lingpa is not necessarily implying here that Stephen Batchelor is not completely wrong after all, is he?

Or is "somewhere else" the key phrase here?
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

KrisW
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby KrisW » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:31 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
RikudouSennin wrote:...All accounts assering that by striving in meditative practice you will reach some vast region somewhere else, called a buddhafield, are called paths of expedient means."


Yes.


Wait a minute.

I thought that Buddhafields are mentioned in even the highest (?) class of texts, which are supposed to be definitive.

Dudjom Lingpa is not necessarily implying here that Stephen Batchelor was not wrong all along, is he?

Or is "somewhere else" the key phrase here?


From my limited understanding it seems as if the buddhafields are viewed as enlightened qualities as opposed to actual locations or destinations.
I'm certain Malcolm could answer you more clearly though.
Peace.
The sage taught this entire tenet system for the sake of wisdom; therefore, with the desire to ward off suffering, one should develop wisdom.
~Śāntideva~

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 23333
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dalai Lama's daily practice - specific details

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:55 pm

MiphamFan wrote:What "culture"?

ChNN also practices his own sadhanas daily. Many Dzogchen masters do so.


I have heard the boss state, more than once, that he does not maintain a regular practice schedule of thun practices. That said, for his longevity, it is well known that he relies in Mandarava. He also is fond of Tara, and Ozer Chenma.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

Sādhaka
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Sādhaka » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:36 am

RikudouSennin wrote:
Sādhaka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Wait a minute.

I thought that Buddhafields are mentioned in even the highest (?) class(es) of texts, which are supposed to be definitive.

Dudjom Lingpa is not necessarily implying here that Stephen Batchelor is not completely wrong after all, is he?

Or is "somewhere else" the key phrase here?


From my limited understanding it seems as if the buddhafields are viewed as enlightened qualities as opposed to actual locations or destinations.
I'm certain Malcolm could answer you more clearly though.
Peace.


Okay, thanks for your reply.

Then perhaps "somewhere else" is the key phrase here, meaning that the Buddhafields are inside rather than being external places that one is transported to.

If such is the case, then I don't think that Dudjom Lingpa was trying to go "Stephen Batchelor" on us.

Or maybe there is a third alternative here that I'm not seeing.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 23333
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:06 am

Sādhaka wrote:
RikudouSennin wrote:
Sādhaka wrote:
Wait a minute.

I thought that Buddhafields are mentioned in even the highest (?) class(es) of texts, which are supposed to be definitive.

Dudjom Lingpa is not necessarily implying here that Stephen Batchelor is not completely wrong after all, is he?

Or is "somewhere else" the key phrase here?


From my limited understanding it seems as if the buddhafields are viewed as enlightened qualities as opposed to actual locations or destinations.
I'm certain Malcolm could answer you more clearly though.
Peace.


Okay, thanks for your reply.

Then perhaps "somewhere else" is the key phrase here, meaning that the Buddhafields are inside rather than being external places that one is transported to.

If such is the case, then I don't think that Dudjom Lingpa was trying to go "Stephen Batchelor" on us.

Or maybe there is a third alternative here that I'm not seeing.



There are no buddhafields external to one's own state, from the perspective of Dzogchen.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

User avatar
smcj
Posts: 4982
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby smcj » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:55 am

Does this mean that Dzogchen masters ruled out an indirect path for unfortunates? No.

"Unfortunates"?
I have heard the boss state, more than once, that he does not maintain a regular practice schedule of thun practices. That said, for his longevity, it is well known that he relies in Mandarava. He also is fond of Tara, and Ozer Chenma

If he's interested in longevity he must not be dismissive of all "causes and conditions", right?
My posts are for entertainment purposes only. Please don't take anything I say seriously unless you confirm it with a traditional teacher first.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 23333
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:08 pm

smcj wrote:
Does this mean that Dzogchen masters ruled out an indirect path for unfortunates? No.

"Unfortunates"?
I have heard the boss state, more than once, that he does not maintain a regular practice schedule of thun practices. That said, for his longevity, it is well known that he relies in Mandarava. He also is fond of Tara, and Ozer Chenma

If he's interested in longevity he must not be dismissive of all "causes and conditions", right?


What does that have to do with Dzogchen.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

User avatar
smcj
Posts: 4982
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby smcj » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:51 pm

If he's interested in longevity he must not be dismissive of all "causes and conditions", right?


What does that have to do with Dzogchen.

It has to do with his attitude towards sadhana practice, which is included in this thread.

To your credit you willingly made the point yourself. I'm just highlighting it.

My take on your post(s) is that you are more "Dzogchen exclusive" than ChNN is. For instance I don't easily imagine you sitting down and doing a Tara sadhana. Nothing wrong with that. That's your karmic trajectory.

Like I said, I'm just highlighting the point you just made about ChNN's apparently more tolerant approach to sadhanas than your own.
My posts are for entertainment purposes only. Please don't take anything I say seriously unless you confirm it with a traditional teacher first.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 23333
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:44 pm

smcj wrote:
If he's interested in longevity he must not be dismissive of all "causes and conditions", right?


What does that have to do with Dzogchen.

It has to do with his attitude towards sadhana practice, which is included in this thread.

To your credit you willingly made the point yourself. I'm just highlighting it.

My take on your post(s) is that you are more "Dzogchen exclusive" than ChNN is. For instance I don't easily imagine you sitting down and doing a Tara sadhana. Nothing wrong with that. That's your karmic trajectory.

Like I said, I'm just highlighting the point you just made about ChNN's apparently more tolerant approach to sadhanas than your own.


I find it amazing when people who have no relationship with nor have ever sat in his company for any extended period of time feel confident in commenting on ChNN's point of view about this and that in an effort to fit him into their own views about Dharma. This is remarkable indeed because of the consistent disagreement with which their comments meet from people who are actually the man's students.

FYI, in ChNN's teachings all sadhanas of whatever stripe are considered secondary practices.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Mantrik » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
FYI, in ChNN's teachings all sadhanas of whatever stripe are considered secondary practices.


I've heard him say countless times that all samayas are satisified though the performance of Guruyoga and that the one practice he requires us to do is Guruyoga. If Guruyoga were not able to stand alone (meaning without secondary practices) then he would not say that. Of course, many of us need secondary practices, but the descriptor itself implies we already must have a primary practice.......Guruyoga.

User avatar
smcj
Posts: 4982
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby smcj » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:

What does that have to do with Dzogchen.

It has to do with his attitude towards sadhana practice, which is included in this thread.

To your credit you willingly made the point yourself. I'm just highlighting it.

My take on your post(s) is that you are more "Dzogchen exclusive" than ChNN is. For instance I don't easily imagine you sitting down and doing a Tara sadhana. Nothing wrong with that. That's your karmic trajectory.

Like I said, I'm just highlighting the point you just made about ChNN's apparently more tolerant approach to sadhanas than your own.


I find it amazing when people who have no relationship with nor have ever sat in his company for any extended period of time feel confident in commenting on ChNN's point of view about this and that in an effort to fit him into their own views about Dharma. This is remarkable indeed because of the consistent disagreement with which their comments meet from people who are actually the man's students.

FYI, in ChNN's teachings all sadhanas of whatever stripe are considered secondary practices.

That was never contested. Point conceded.
*****
So now let us discuss sadhana practice as secondary practices.

Would you agree that ChNN's endorsement of sadhana practices as secondary is an endorsement of their value and validity in general? Would you also agree that your own position on the value of sadhana practices in general, even as secondary, is dismissive of their validity?

My point being that either:
A. You and ChNN have differing perspectives on the general value of sadhana practice, although you both agree that they have a secondary role, or
B. I have ChNN's perspective wrong, and he agrees with you, or
C. I have your perspective wrong, and you agree with him. Or
D. I've interpreted both of your positions incorrectly, which gives you a perfect platform to explain both ChNN's (as you understand it) and your positions on the value and validity of sadhana practice in general.

For the sake of this discussion that specifically means entirely within the context of a secondary role to Dzogchen. That shouldn't require more than a simple clarification on your part.
My posts are for entertainment purposes only. Please don't take anything I say seriously unless you confirm it with a traditional teacher first.

Gyurme Kundrol
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 7:34 pm

Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice

Postby Gyurme Kundrol » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:37 pm

Practice is secondary because practice wont lead beyond the pinnacle of existence, and thus to a higher rebirth. It will purify the substrate from which Samsara and Nirvana arise, but wont reveal their true nature as primordial emptiness from the beginning, nor will it give rise to the knowledge of itself as inseparable with that nature. Nor will it give rise to the realization that all appearing energy whatsoever (to ones awareness and mind) is arising within and from ones own innermost nature. It wont give rise to the knowledge of how all things arise naturally and spontaneously without effort. And how could it? If a person is engaging in practice they have already decided:

A) I dont have what I need for enlightenment (dissatisfaction, suffering)

B) I need this for enlightenment because I dont want that (acceptance and rejection)

C) Attention and conceptualization in practice is only further conditioning the substrate either into the phenomena of Samsara and Nirvana but is not a direct experience of their true nature nor can practice create that experience, since all (secondary) practice never moves from the appearance side of reality.

Now from a Buddhist perspective in general such practice is indeed skillful means. However if you have been introduced to minds true nature and especially if you can just practice on that level, then thinking like this can be a distraction and just slow you down. If you cant practice Dzogchen by itself, if the signs of ones mindstream becoming purified are not present, then further purify with secondary practice, but do so without the delusion that ones experiences and practice is liberation itself, and do so without the delusion that practice will create liberation because liberation has existed from the beginning.

If you already have a habit of practice when you realize minds true nature then it will be easy for you. But otherwise if you dont have that then the practice (Dzogchen) is to keep engaging your ordinary life and realizing that ALL those appearing phenomena are nothing but primordial emptiness from the beginning, always inseperable from your awareness and always arising non dual with it. If you do this correctly then those phenomena naturally liberate and eventually stop appearing all together. If you do this incorrectly like deciding you must transform an appearance into another appearance or that you need to do this or that mantra or practice, then your Rigpa is just not developed very well and thats fine. If you keep practicing it will develop more and more and eventually a threshold will be reached. That threshold is the beginning of true self liberation where even though appearances keep arising, they all naturally liberate without effort. Then you are definitely on the swift path to liberation while in this body or at least during the bardo of dying.


Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: amanitamusc, bfaus, davyji and 40 guests