Confused about nature of mind introduction

tingdzin
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby tingdzin » Sat May 20, 2017 3:23 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:With the caveat of avoiding teachers whose actual Dzogchen teachings and practice
. . .
Dechen Norbu wrote:are only dispensed after years and years of practicing something else, but Dzogchen.


Some teachers teach this way, and it is not for mere students to judge them, any more than it is for students to judge teachers who open Dzogchen up to everyone who has a computer screen. Neither teachers nor students fit into a "one size fits all" model.

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conebeckham
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby conebeckham » Sat May 20, 2017 3:56 am

tingdzin wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:With the caveat of avoiding teachers whose actual Dzogchen teachings and practice
. . .
Dechen Norbu wrote:are only dispensed after years and years of practicing something else, but Dzogchen.


Some teachers teach this way, and it is not for mere students to judge them, any more than it is for students to judge teachers who open Dzogchen up to everyone who has a computer screen. Neither teachers nor students fit into a "one size fits all" model.
:good:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat May 20, 2017 7:10 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:With the caveat of avoiding teachers whose actual Dzogchen teachings and practice
. . .
Dechen Norbu wrote:are only dispensed after years and years of practicing something else, but Dzogchen.


Some teachers teach this way, and it is not for mere students to judge them, any more than it is for students to judge teachers who open Dzogchen up to everyone who has a computer screen. Neither teachers nor students fit into a "one size fits all" model.

Yes, some teachers do all sorts of stuff. Doesn't mean I'm cool with that. Fortunately some students can still think critically in the presence of a tibetan lama. Others seem to swallow whatever they are given, like going to a math class and instead of learning math ending up in a workshop about origami, thinking this is perfectly normal.

There are probably as many ways to teach Dzogchen as there are Dzogchen masters. This is fine. And probably even more ways to pretend to teach Dzogchen while teaching something else. This is not fine and poor is the student who falls for the later because he lost the ability to judge. At this point lies the seed of each and every personality cult. Instead of seeing the obvious, people become so emotionally invested that they rationalize and come up with all sorts of justifications not to face the obvious. In this case, that they are not learning and practicing Dzogchen.

Anyway, Dzogchen was always a bother to the establishment. It will always be such. That said, there's no need to open that can of worms. We are already off topic as it is...

We never know when death comes. If someone is interested in learning and practicing Dzogchen, such person has the right to search for a teacher who actually teaches Dzogchen from the start, not after years and years of learning and practicing other stuff. Things were a little different if such person was in a monastery going for a khenpo degree, completely immersed in study and practice. In the west, this is very rare. Time is precious. Can't ever buy it back.

What I'm saying is that, in this day and age, if someone wants to practice Dzogchen, he should not be bullshited into going through other things as if they were Dzogchen when they aren't. Many teachers of impeccable lineage can help in this matter. If that bothers you, and makes me sound judgmemental, I can live with it.

What I'm NOT saying is that everyone should practice Dzogchen. But those who do want it have the right to know what they are getting into. If a teacher is said to be a Dzogchen teacher, then he should teach Dzogchen from the start, not in some far away future when hopefully the student becomes oh so special that he can finally learn. Most likely... it will never happen. Most probable...not the student's fault.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby KrisW » Sat May 20, 2017 8:43 pm

:good:
The sage taught this entire tenet system for the sake of wisdom; therefore, with the desire to ward off suffering, one should develop wisdom.
~Śāntideva~

tingdzin
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby tingdzin » Sat May 20, 2017 9:05 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Yes, some teachers do all sorts of stuff. Doesn't mean I'm cool with that.


Who are you?

Dechen Norbu wrote:If a teacher is said to be a Dzogchen teacher, then he should teach Dzogchen from the start,


Who are you to judge? As I said, there are different approaches, and people make their own decisions. Are you going to say that all the teachers who teach a more traditional way are just wrong? What arrogance.

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 20, 2017 9:11 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Yes, some teachers do all sorts of stuff. Doesn't mean I'm cool with that.


Who are you?

Dechen Norbu wrote:If a teacher is said to be a Dzogchen teacher, then he should teach Dzogchen from the start,


Who are you to judge? As I said, there are different approaches, and people make their own decisions. Are you going to say that all the teachers who teach a more traditional way are just wrong? What arrogance.



I think what he is saying is that there are some teachers who are like the example of a dishonest merchant, setting out a deer's tail and selling donkey meat instead to unsuspecting customers.

I've met such people.
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There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat May 20, 2017 10:20 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Yes, some teachers do all sorts of stuff. Doesn't mean I'm cool with that.


Who are you?

Dechen Norbu wrote:If a teacher is said to be a Dzogchen teacher, then he should teach Dzogchen from the start,


Who are you to judge? As I said, there are different approaches, and people make their own decisions. Are you going to say that all the teachers who teach a more traditional way are just wrong? What arrogance.


:good:
The true condition is beyond numbers. If we think in terms of an "individual being" this means that we are limiting, and consequently everything becomes complicated. If we want to understand, then we must not limit. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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smcj
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby smcj » Sat May 20, 2017 10:35 pm

What I'm NOT saying is that everyone should practice Dzogchen.

Nice of you to allow for that.
My posts are for entertainment purposes only. Please don't take anything I say seriously unless you confirm it with a traditional teacher first.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun May 21, 2017 12:04 am

Malcolm wrote:
tingdzin wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Yes, some teachers do all sorts of stuff. Doesn't mean I'm cool with that.


Who are you?

Dechen Norbu wrote:If a teacher is said to be a Dzogchen teacher, then he should teach Dzogchen from the start,


Who are you to judge? As I said, there are different approaches, and people make their own decisions. Are you going to say that all the teachers who teach a more traditional way are just wrong? What arrogance.



I think what he is saying is that there are some teachers who are like the example of a dishonest merchant, setting out a deer's tail and selling donkey meat instead to unsuspecting customers.

I've met such people.

In a nutshell, yes.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby TaTa » Sun May 21, 2017 1:22 am

Another thread going into the direction of who has the biggest dzogchen... Its getting really anoying

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun May 21, 2017 1:28 am

TaTa wrote:Another thread going into the direction of who has the biggest dzogchen... Its getting really anoying


Some people just want to make Dzogchen great again. :smile:
The true condition is beyond numbers. If we think in terms of an "individual being" this means that we are limiting, and consequently everything becomes complicated. If we want to understand, then we must not limit. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun May 21, 2017 1:43 am

TaTa wrote:Another thread going into the direction of who has the biggest dzogchen... Its getting really anoying

Why would you say such a thing? Don't you think it is legitimate discussing these matters? It's not a matter of the biggest Dzogchen. It's a matter of intellectual honesty.

Listen, Dzogchen doesn't need fancy institutions, much less it needs the few aristocratic/wealthy people that lived way above the average Tibetan due to the existence of those institutions. So, in a way, Dzogchen as a stand alone yana was always kind of a threat. In semi feudal society it was more or less easy to contain it, to hide the unbearable fact that in the presence of Dzogchen the big religious organizations risked becoming obsolete. So Dzogchen became for the few, for la creme de la creme, something so secret that it could only be taught after many years of other practices, those deeply depending of the institutions that nurtured them. Dzogchen transformation in terms of presentation also made it more palatable to competing schools, especially those that held most secular power.

Interestingly enough, a prophecy spoke about the future utility of Dzogchen in the cities of the West. Was it refering to West Tibet? Maybe... although few cities existed there. Might West mean our West? Perhaps.

Whatever the case, that was then. This is now. Due to the great courage of a few teachers, the cat is out of the bag. Oh and it doesn't meows! It roars like a fraking thunder, silencing critics one after the other in the last decades. Here, in the West, far, far away from the religious/secular power that constrained Dzogchen for centuries, Dzogchen is gaining strenght as a stand alone yana. If traditionalists had their way, neither you or me would even know the word Dzogchen, let alone its practices. So one wonders.

These matters are important and worth discussing in good faith. That's all I'm saying. No "my dick is bigger than yours attitude from me". I hope others feel the same. I guess we're just in the wrong topic... might be that.
Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Sun May 21, 2017 1:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun May 21, 2017 1:49 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
TaTa wrote:Another thread going into the direction of who has the biggest dzogchen... Its getting really anoying


Some people just want to make Dzogchen great again. :smile:

Your argument backfires, you know?
In your usual way you make my case. A lot of people love to be bullshited. It's a fact!

Trump being the most powerful man on Earth is a good example. Some love to be bullshited in politics. Others in spirituality. That's what happens when you're told you'll be practicing Dzogchen, but you actually never do it. It's called deception. Trump voters will soon realize this. Let's hope Dzogchen students pick up the ride.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun May 21, 2017 2:03 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
TaTa wrote:Another thread going into the direction of who has the biggest dzogchen... Its getting really anoying


Some people just want to make Dzogchen great again. :smile:

Your argument backfires, you know?
In your usual way you make my case. A lot of people love to be bullshited. It's a fact!

Trump being the most powerful man on Earth is a good example. Some love to be bullshited in politics. Others in spirituality. That's what happens when you're told you'll be practicing Dzogchen, but you actually never do it. It's called deception. Trump voters will soon realize this. Let's hope Dzogchen students pick up the ride.


Well, maybe you've got a point. Anyway, I've got to get back to my Khaita. :cheers:
The true condition is beyond numbers. If we think in terms of an "individual being" this means that we are limiting, and consequently everything becomes complicated. If we want to understand, then we must not limit. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun May 21, 2017 2:06 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Some people just want to make Dzogchen great again. :smile:

Your argument backfires, you know?
In your usual way you make my case. A lot of people love to be bullshited. It's a fact!

Trump being the most powerful man on Earth is a good example. Some love to be bullshited in politics. Others in spirituality. That's what happens when you're told you'll be practicing Dzogchen, but you actually never do it. It's called deception. Trump voters will soon realize this. Let's hope Dzogchen students pick up the ride.


Well, maybe you've got a point. Anyway, I've got to get back to my Khaita. :cheers:

Can't grow myself to like that. One big limitation I found out is how much I dislike that crap. That goes to show how we can learn from the tiniest things...

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 21, 2017 2:50 am

smcj wrote:
What I'm NOT saying is that everyone should practice Dzogchen.

Nice of you to allow for that.



Dzogchen is only for people who are truly interested in it. Others should find paths more suited to their wishes, As Pagor Vairocana said to Paṇḍita Prajn̄āsiddhi, when asked with which vehicle can the result be attained, he replied:

    The individual entrances into the innermost view of ultimate dharmatā
    are differentiated by grades of capacity.
    The result will also be obtained by realizing
    any vehicle of the sublime Dharma taught by the Buddha.
Atikosha
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Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby anjali » Sun May 21, 2017 6:42 am

Some personal attack posts removed. Spirited discussion doesn't have to get personal...
All things are unworthy of clinging to (sabbe dhammā nâla abhinivesāyā). --Shakyamuni Buddha
Wanting to grasp the ungraspable, you exhaust yourself in vain. --Gendun Rinpoche

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby pael » Sun May 21, 2017 11:44 am

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
What I'm NOT saying is that everyone should practice Dzogchen.

Nice of you to allow for that.



Dzogchen is only for people who are truly interested in it. Others should find paths more suited to their wishes, As Pagor Vairocana said to Paṇḍita Prajn̄āsiddhi, when asked with which vehicle can the result be attained, he replied:

    The individual entrances into the innermost view of ultimate dharmatā
    are differentiated by grades of capacity.
    The result will also be obtained by realizing
    any vehicle of the sublime Dharma taught by the Buddha.

How about after DI or initiation finding it insuitable for their wishes or capabilities? What to do then?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 21, 2017 1:32 pm

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:Nice of you to allow for that.



Dzogchen is only for people who are truly interested in it. Others should find paths more suited to their wishes, As Pagor Vairocana said to Paṇḍita Prajn̄āsiddhi, when asked with which vehicle can the result be attained, he replied:

    The individual entrances into the innermost view of ultimate dharmatā
    are differentiated by grades of capacity.
    The result will also be obtained by realizing
    any vehicle of the sublime Dharma taught by the Buddha.

How about after DI or initiation finding it insuitable for their wishes or capabilities? What to do then?


They practice what they are able to. As ChNN says, "Do your best." However, Ati guruyoga is about the easiest practice in the world.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

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smcj
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Postby smcj » Sun May 21, 2017 3:48 pm

However, Ati guruyoga is about the easiest practice in the world.

Serious question: How is Ati guruyoga different than regular guruyoga?
My posts are for entertainment purposes only. Please don't take anything I say seriously unless you confirm it with a traditional teacher first.


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