Yidam and Dzogchen

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Malcolm
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:54 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:52 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:10 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:36 pm
Sorry for the resurrection of this thread but I recently read this interesting little book.

Image

Longchenpa insist, in this book, that one have to practice these four preliminaries before engaging in proper Dzogchen practice.

1. Impermanence
2. Bodhicitta
3. Yidam practice
4. Guru Yoga

The way he introduce the natural state are with bliss, clarity and non-thought. These practices are also described in much detail. Very interesting book.

/magnus
Yes, because Sem side is the completion stage of Maha and anuyoga. This is also how ChNN teaches the practice sems side in a practical sense.
Yes, that is a good point. But Longchenpa doesn't really put it like that, he just insist that they are necessary preliminaries,

/magnus
This set of books is about sems sde, and was also written before he met Kumaraja.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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heart
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:54 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:52 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:10 pm


Yes, because Sem side is the completion stage of Maha and anuyoga. This is also how ChNN teaches the practice sems side in a practical sense.
Yes, that is a good point. But Longchenpa doesn't really put it like that, he just insist that they are necessary preliminaries,

/magnus
This set of books is about sems sde, and was also written before he met Kumaraja.
If you say so, but I don't see how that matters actually. Sems sde is also Dzogchen.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

oldbob
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by oldbob » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:06 pm

wisdomfire wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:04 am
Can someone comment abit about the relationship between practising yidams and dzogchen? What is the common trend now? Do we need to practise yidam in order to practise dzogchen and how many yidams, dakinis and protectors do we need?

any related comments or experiences in this area thanks!
:namaste:
Good posts all and a wealth of information about the bhumis, paths and Ven. Longchenpa.

I was struck by the inadvertent excellent answer to this question provided in the quotes that Magnus attaches to all of his postings.

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

At one point in my life when I was collecting Yidams, to try them on so to speak, I felt a little exhausted - it seemed endless. So I asked several Dzogchen Masters, " Are all creative visualization / absorption practices the same?" They each first looked at me with a little surprise and then said "yes". This meant that I could relax about collecting Yidams. So I then concentrated on one yidam and was very content.

A yidam is useful for accomplishing things in the world - magic powers if you will. These powers are the spare change of practice - not the heart of the matter. The heart of the matter is to become enlightened. I think that I am very fortunate that I have never sought power of any sort. I take Ven. Longchenpas' thirty pieces of advice to heart.

This is a practical guide to the heart of the matter.

http://unfetteredmind.org/longchenpas-3 ... re-advice/

So going back to the original question and the inadvertent answer - This is the key point. So for Dzogchen you don't need any yidam, but you can practice 1000 if you like. The key point is to integrate (non-dual) all practice with guru-yoga. In ChNNR's use of this phrase, it means integrate (non-dual) everything with the natural state.

The issue of how you parse the stages of the path is resolved in the same way. Whatever modal you use, you are fitting a framework onto the endless variety of human experience. Perhaps experience is a flow and cannot be captured by snapshot definitions. Certainly it is interesting to have a yardstick by which to measure your practice, but in Dzogchen, integration with the natural state puts to rest all these questions. This is the single point that unlocks all questions / doubts - the famous "one taste" - like trying to write on water or air.

So in Dzogchen it all knocks down to direct introduction, developing confidence and continuing. In the great completion, it does not matter whether you take 1000 yidams or none. Your job is to integrate (non-dual) everything into the natural state 24/7.

:heart:

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by anjali » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:21 am

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haha
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by haha » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:01 am

heart wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:36 pm

The way he introduce the natural state are with bliss, clarity and non-thought. These practices are also described in much detail. Very interesting book.

/magnus
Thanks for suggesting this book.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Malcolm
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:54 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:54 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:52 am


Yes, that is a good point. But Longchenpa doesn't really put it like that, he just insist that they are necessary preliminaries,

/magnus
This set of books is about sems sde, and was also written before he met Kumaraja.
If you say so, but I don't see how that matters actually. Sems sde is also Dzogchen.

/magnus
According to ChNN, sems sde must be practiced in conjunction with regular creation and completion stage, that is the point I am making. Sems de, unlike man ngag sde, is not an independent system of practice.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Miroku
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Miroku » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 pm
According to ChNN, sems sde must be practiced in conjunction with regular creation and completion stage, that is the point I am making. Sems de, unlike man ngag sde, is not an independent system of practice.
Why is that so that it has to be paired with creation and completion stage?
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.

~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:12 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 pm
According to ChNN, sems sde must be practiced in conjunction with regular creation and completion stage, that is the point I am making. Sems de, unlike man ngag sde, is not an independent system of practice.
Why is that so that it has to be paired with creation and completion stage?
One cannot attain rainbow body with sems sde alone.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Miroku
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Miroku » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:12 pm
One cannot attain rainbow body with sems sde alone.
Is it possible with HYT creation and completion stages? If yes does one has to engage in completion practice with signs in order to attain rainbow body or is practice without signs "enough"?
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.

~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

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heart
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:54 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:54 pm


This set of books is about sems sde, and was also written before he met Kumaraja.
If you say so, but I don't see how that matters actually. Sems sde is also Dzogchen.

/magnus
According to ChNN, sems sde must be practiced in conjunction with regular creation and completion stage, that is the point I am making. Sems de, unlike man ngag sde, is not an independent system of practice.
I never heard him say that, but I have no reason to don't believe you. Anyway the "man ngag sde", in particular the "yang sang lana mepé kor" (the nyingtik), have a lot of deity practices that connected to those teachings. I am not really trying to prove something here, but it is just kind of obvious.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:02 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:54 pm


If you say so, but I don't see how that matters actually. Sems sde is also Dzogchen.

/magnus
According to ChNN, sems sde must be practiced in conjunction with regular creation and completion stage, that is the point I am making. Sems de, unlike man ngag sde, is not an independent system of practice.
I never heard him say that, but I have no reason to don't believe you. Anyway the "man ngag sde", in particular the "yang sang lana mepé kor" (the nyingtik), have a lot of deity practices that connected to those teachings. I am not really trying to prove something here, but it is just kind of obvious.

/magnus
Yes, as a support for practitioners, one can use any deity, not just "nyingma" deities. But deity yoga is not the main path for man ngag sde, unlike sems sde.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
heart
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Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:02 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 pm


According to ChNN, sems sde must be practiced in conjunction with regular creation and completion stage, that is the point I am making. Sems de, unlike man ngag sde, is not an independent system of practice.
I never heard him say that, but I have no reason to don't believe you. Anyway the "man ngag sde", in particular the "yang sang lana mepé kor" (the nyingtik), have a lot of deity practices that connected to those teachings. I am not really trying to prove something here, but it is just kind of obvious.

/magnus
Yes, as a support for practitioners, one can use any deity, not just "nyingma" deities. But deity yoga is not the main path for man ngag sde, unlike sems sde.
Of course, any deity is fine and the natural state is the main practice.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

pael
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by pael » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:12 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:12 pm
Miroku wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 pm
According to ChNN, sems sde must be practiced in conjunction with regular creation and completion stage, that is the point I am making. Sems de, unlike man ngag sde, is not an independent system of practice.
Why is that so that it has to be paired with creation and completion stage?
One cannot attain rainbow body with sems sde alone.
How to attain rainbow body?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

haha
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by haha » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:31 am

pael wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:12 am
How to attain rainbow body?
Following quote is from an old topic - "Rainbow Body - Why?". It is very clear and brief answer.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:53 pm
"Rainbow body" is a name for what happens when the elements of body reverts back to their original nature as pristine consciousness as a result of the process of Dzogchen practice or completion stage practice. A key point of Vajrayāna is that there is no buddhahood that is not grounded in the body. Hence, the attainment of rainbow body, or the body of light, is regarded as proof that a practitioner has attained buddhahood. This is never mentioned in sūtra because sūtra has no methods of practice that involve the body as a vehicle for awakening.
If you have time, please listen Chamtrul Rinpoche teaching on "The Six Bardo Teachings of Life and Death". You will get detail answer in Life and Death topic and some interesting references.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... b-LDlJbuv4

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

tingdzin
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by tingdzin » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:49 am

Beware of dogmatic anwers to this question. On such a profound topic, no one but your own teacher can be wholly trusted. there is no "one size fits all" Dzogchen.

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