Yidam and Dzogchen

Kai
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Kai » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:24 pm

kirtu wrote:
Kai wrote: I figure that as much since I heard POV mainly from my Gelug and Kagyu teachers. In Drikung, even arhats are said to be equate to that of a sixth Bhumi Bodhisattva. I don't think any other schools will agree with that.
No that's standard across schools although I don't remember for sure if an Arhat was equated exactly with a 6th bhumi bodhisattva in terms of wisdom (it's the in terms of wisdom where the equating is done on this). So when Arhats are awakened from their samadhi and they take rebirth they are reborn as sixth bhumi bodhisattvas.
Gelugpas might accept it but I wasn't sure. Kagyu is more complicated but Karma Kagyu stand follow that of the Gelugpas. Nevertheless, even in classical Mahayana, the idea of Arahat = 6th Bhumi Bodhisattva was flatly rejected, chiefly by early Yogacara schools who believe that Arahats could not become Buddhas. Eventually, Madhyamaka argued the case and won but still, Arahats have to start over again from the first Bhumi or even lower in some cases if they ever desire to enter the Bodhisattva path and become a Buddha.

For the Theravada, Arahants are not much different from the Buddhas, so.................

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by username » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:43 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote: Really. Please the difference between Hināyāna and Mahāyāna in Gorampa's "Distinguishing views".
I had "Freedom from Extremes" but had to give it away for the move. Ok - thanks!

Kirt

BTW, I don't think this is accepted in Nyingma either.
AFAIK this is true since Kagyus and Gelugs assume arahats' and bodhisattvas' understanding of emptiness is generally similar. But Sakyas and Nyingmas don't think so. Which is why an arahat who is asleep in space or inside a mountain needs a high bodhisattva to wake him up since not only he lacks that bodhicitta level of motivation, but his understanding of true emptiness is also of a lower class than a bodhisattva and that is also part of the reason for his long particular samadhi.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes

Kai
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Kai » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:14 pm

Namdrol wrote:Still we have to distinguish that while ground mahāmudra of the Kagyu school and sems sde bear some similarities, they also end in Sems sde. It is the opinion of ChNN that the four yogas of mahāmudra were borrowed from sems sde by Gampopa, and certainly he was a Nyingma practitioner before he met Milarepa.
Okay, this is interesting. While we are still on the topic, the above comment has reminded me of something I heard some time ago from a Dzogchen practitioner who claimed the Longde and semde divisions of Dzogchen give the same result since once the practitioners of both division give rise to same death phenomena, body dissolving into particles or the so called partial rainbow body rather than the complete version (Jalus Phoba Chenpo)

Since Namdrol, you explicitly stated that Mahamudra and Semde give the same result which is the 13th Bhumi Buddhahood of the lower yanas. By logical deduction, Longde should also lead to the same realization as the observation shown above. Therefore its not a far stretch to conclude that only the Menngagde division is able to lead one into the 16th Bhumi. So if what stated in the tantras are really true, it can be seen that the Dzogchen teachings just turn upon themselves or self contradict. You can argue that those tantras are from the Menngagde series but still its strange to see such vast difference between the lower two division and highest one in the same vehicle.

Now, we all know that Buddhism is great not just because of its profound teachings but because of the 84000 methods to achieve Buddhahood or liberation and this is even true in Vajrayana which have lots of different deity practices and completion stage yogas. However, when one reaches the teachings of the highest level, it is suddenly stated that there is only one or a few paths which could lead to the true and ultimate Buddhahood while the rest is just provisional and temporal ones that will eventually degenerate.

Sorry, I can't help it but the more I read and think of the same issue, the more it doesn't make sense to me. Need some help here........

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Malcolm
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:28 pm

Kai wrote:
Since Namdrol, you explicitly stated that Mahamudra and Semde give the same result which is the 13th Bhumi Buddhahood of the lower yanas. By logical deduction, Longde should also lead to the same realization as the observation shown above. Therefore its not a far stretch to conclude that only the Menngagde division is able to lead one into the 16th Bhumi.
klong sde has the four visions, therefore, it has the same result as man ngag sde. Sems sde does not have this, therefore, no "rainbow" body in sems sde.



However, when one reaches the teachings of the highest level, it is suddenly stated that there is only one or a few paths which could lead to the true and ultimate Buddhahood while the rest is just provisional and temporal ones that will eventually degenerate.
Yes, and when you read Yangti tantras, they are critical of ati and spyi ti, and so on.

N
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:37 pm

Namdrol wrote: Yes, and when you read Yangti tantras, they are critical of ati and spyi ti, and so on.
Could you tell the (Tibetan) names of these tantras?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

Kai
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Kai » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:38 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Kai wrote:
Since Namdrol, you explicitly stated that Mahamudra and Semde give the same result which is the 13th Bhumi Buddhahood of the lower yanas. By logical deduction, Longde should also lead to the same realization as the observation shown above. Therefore its not a far stretch to conclude that only the Menngagde division is able to lead one into the 16th Bhumi.
klong sde has the four visions, therefore, it has the same result as man ngag sde. Sems sde does not have this, therefore, no "rainbow" body in sems sde.

N
So, Longde has Thogal teachings? Okay, I admit that I'm ignorant of this....But I thought Rigpa is only mentioned in the Menngagde division.

And is the teaching on the 16 Bhumi taken from the Seventeen Tantras?

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by deepbluehum » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:46 pm

Kai wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Kai wrote: I figure that as much since I heard POV mainly from my Gelug and Kagyu teachers. In Drikung, even arhats are said to be equate to that of a sixth Bhumi Bodhisattva. I don't think any other schools will agree with that.
No that's standard across schools although I don't remember for sure if an Arhat was equated exactly with a 6th bhumi bodhisattva in terms of wisdom (it's the in terms of wisdom where the equating is done on this). So when Arhats are awakened from their samadhi and they take rebirth they are reborn as sixth bhumi bodhisattvas.
Gelugpas might accept it but I wasn't sure. Kagyu is more complicated but Karma Kagyu stand follow that of the Gelugpas. Nevertheless, even in classical Mahayana, the idea of Arahat = 6th Bhumi Bodhisattva was flatly rejected, chiefly by early Yogacara schools who believe that Arahats could not become Buddhas. Eventually, Madhyamaka argued the case and won but still, Arahats have to start over again from the first Bhumi or even lower in some cases if they ever desire to enter the Bodhisattva path and become a Buddha.

For the Theravada, Arahants are not much different from the Buddhas, so.................
Kagyu say Arhat is 6th Bhumi. The way they do it is like a sliding scale. Arhat have full understanding of selflessness of persons 10% of selflessness of dharmas. Bodhisattvas at first bhumi have full selflessness of persons and maybe 1% selflessness of dharmas, and then it scales up to 99.9% for 10th Bhumi.

Dzogchen as it shows up in all lineages is not strictly Nyingma. The tradition sort of carves out its own world beyond sutra and tantra. It has the feel of a meta-lineage. So you will find their own bhumis and their own system.

Kai
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Kai » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:53 pm

deepbluehum wrote: Dzogchen as it shows up in all lineages is not strictly Nyingma. The tradition sort of carves out its own world beyond sutra and tantra. It has the feel of a meta-lineage. So you will find their own bhumis and their own system.
Dzogchen teachings are derived from Dzogchen tantras, so they are not beyond tantras. And they use the traditional Buddhist Mahayana system of the five paths and ten bhumis, the only difference is that they add 6 more stages to the ten and make it sixteen. Its not that distinctive....

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:04 pm

Kai wrote:So, Longde has Thogal teachings? Okay, I admit that I'm ignorant of this....
Longde has Longde teachings. :D
Through them you can achieve the same result as through Thogel.
But I thought Rigpa is only mentioned in the Menngagde division.
It's present also in Semde and Longde.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by deepbluehum » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:14 pm

Kai wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: Dzogchen as it shows up in all lineages is not strictly Nyingma. The tradition sort of carves out its own world beyond sutra and tantra. It has the feel of a meta-lineage. So you will find their own bhumis and their own system.
Dzogchen teachings are derived from Dzogchen tantras, so they are not beyond tantras. And they use the traditional Buddhist Mahayana system of the five paths and ten bhumis, the only difference is that they add 6 more stages to the ten and make it sixteen. Its not that distinctive....
Yes of course to be precise I'm saying they derive from their own tantras. These days teachers are interpreting those tantras in a way that they are seen to be beyond Vajrayana tantras, meaning the 84 Mahasiddhas' tantras. I should have said beyond Vajrayana. I was using my own terms there, sorry. The system itself is quite unique from the usual Vajrayana fare. And these six more stages is what makes it much more distinctive in my opinion. Dzogchen is seen to be a higher yana than Vajrayana, with a higher base, a higher path and a higher irreversible fruit, as you have pointed out. Careful scrutiny for yourself will bare out whether this stands to reason or not.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by booker » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:22 pm

Kai wrote:Dzogchen teachings are derived from Dzogchen tantras, so they are not beyond tantras.
There's quite clear explanation on this subject in The Crystal and the Way of Light: Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen for example.
"Be Buddhist or be Buddha"

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:50 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Kai wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: Dzogchen as it shows up in all lineages is not strictly Nyingma. The tradition sort of carves out its own world beyond sutra and tantra. It has the feel of a meta-lineage. So you will find their own bhumis and their own system.
Dzogchen teachings are derived from Dzogchen tantras, so they are not beyond tantras. And they use the traditional Buddhist Mahayana system of the five paths and ten bhumis, the only difference is that they add 6 more stages to the ten and make it sixteen. Its not that distinctive....
Yes of course to be precise I'm saying they derive from their own tantras. These days teachers are interpreting those tantras in a way that they are seen to be beyond Vajrayana tantras, meaning the 84 Mahasiddhas' tantras. I should have said beyond Vajrayana. I was using my own terms there, sorry. The system itself is quite unique from the usual Vajrayana fare. And these six more stages is what makes it much more distinctive in my opinion. Dzogchen is seen to be a higher yana than Vajrayana, with a higher base, a higher path and a higher irreversible fruit, as you have pointed out. Careful scrutiny for yourself will bare out whether this stands to reason or not.
Dzogchen is Vajrayana. It is not some new idea, it is as old as the Dzogchen Tantras.

"I am Manjusrimitra,
Who has obtained the Siddhi of Yamanataka,
Having understood the equality of Samsara and Nirvana,
The wisdom of omniscience has arisen in me!"

Manjusrimita expressing his perfect understanding of the primordial state.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by deepbluehum » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:57 pm

heart wrote:Dzogchen is Vajrayana. It is not some new idea, it is as old as the Dzogchen Tantras.
How old are those?

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:06 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
heart wrote:Dzogchen is Vajrayana. It is not some new idea, it is as old as the Dzogchen Tantras.
How old are those?
At least a 1000 years probably more but you already know that.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by deepbluehum » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:32 pm

heart wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
heart wrote:Dzogchen is Vajrayana. It is not some new idea, it is as old as the Dzogchen Tantras.
How old are those?
At least a 1000 years probably more but you already know that.

/magnus
I know that that is the story, but I can't says that the history. The two don't always coincide.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:31 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
I know that that is the story, but I can't says that the history. The two don't always coincide.
1000 years is history, more depend on your faith.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by kirtu » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:38 pm

username wrote: AFAIK this is true since Kagyus and Gelugs assume arahats' and bodhisattvas' understanding of emptiness is generally similar. But Sakyas and Nyingmas don't think so. Which is why an arahat who is asleep in space or inside a mountain needs a high bodhisattva to wake him up since not only he lacks that bodhicitta level of motivation, but his understanding of true emptiness is also of a lower class than a bodhisattva and that is also part of the reason for his long particular samadhi.
My Sakya lama has said specifically that Arhat and 1st bhumi Bodhisattva cognition of personal emptiness is the same. Of course this isn't true for phenomenal emptiness.

Kirt
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kirtu
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by kirtu » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:48 pm

Tilopa wrote:
kirtu wrote: So when Arhats are awakened from their samadhi and they take rebirth they are reborn as sixth bhumi bodhisattvas.
Are you sure? That would imply their bodhicitta arises spontaneously at the time of birth.
Well no - I clearly need to get to shedra (or ask the lama's these questions). Bodhicitta arising spontaneously at birth certainly should be possible. By definition, an Arhat aroused from samadhi should be capable of meditation in the womb and are the very definition of the 2nd class of tulku (not that I'm trying to drag that debate in here) - the intentional rebirth of an Arya Bodhisattva - the Arhat was roused and then taught by a Buddha and then took rebirth because of bodhicitta motivation. Therefore one major underlying motivation of their new human (or theoretically god in some cases) life would be to master the Bodhicitta arisen at the end of their samadhi. I'll bet a strong case can be made for this (but I've been striking out lately so ....).

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by username » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:01 pm

kirtu wrote:
username wrote: AFAIK this is true since Kagyus and Gelugs assume arahats' and bodhisattvas' understanding of emptiness is generally similar. But Sakyas and Nyingmas don't think so. Which is why an arahat who is asleep in space or inside a mountain needs a high bodhisattva to wake him up since not only he lacks that bodhicitta level of motivation, but his understanding of true emptiness is also of a lower class than a bodhisattva and that is also part of the reason for his long particular samadhi.
My Sakya lama has said specifically that Arhat and 1st bhumi Bodhisattva cognition of personal emptiness is the same. Of course this isn't true for phenomenal emptiness.

Kirt
That's also just the first bhumi's self-cognition emptiness not the sixth, also even a first bhumi bodhisattva's realization of self-emotional emptiness is probably higher too. As to the main question, the awakened arhats will probably differ to some extent from case to case.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Virgo » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:27 pm

kirtu wrote:By definition, an Arhat aroused from samadhi should be capable of meditation in the womb and are the very definition of the 2nd class of tulku (not that I'm trying to drag that debate in here) - the intentional rebirth of an Arya Bodhisattva - the Arhat was roused and then taught by a Buddha and then took rebirth because of bodhicitta motivation.
Hi Kirt,

I don't think Arhats can take birth in the six realms. I'm under the impression they continue the path in various Pure Lands. I may be wrong, though (damn I need to learn more).

As far as one school saying that the Arhat is at the level of First Bhumi, and other schools saying he is at the level of Sixth. I don't really think it makes a difference a big difference. These are just various classifications, that aren't worth too much, IMO. The important point is that the Arhat has fully realized the emptiness of persons, and that Bodhisattvas aim to realize the emptiness of all phenomena.

I personally think a first Bhumi bodhisattva is at the level of the of a Hinayana Sakadagami in terms of what afflcitions have been abandoned by the realization of the emptiness of persons. That is to say they have fully realized the emptiness of persons (having realized the emptiness of all phenomena at the First Bhumi), they have minimized the afflictions of attachment and aversion since they can give a peice of their flesh, for example, to someone in need, but they have not abandoned attachment and aversion of the sense sphere because they can still get angry if someone tortures or abuses them. Because of that last thing listed, they have not removed attachment and aversions completely as Hinayana Anagamis have. Thus leaving them, in terms of afflictions abandoned, on the level of the Hinayana Sakadagami. OF course, however, having realized the emptiness of all phenomena fully, and not merely the emptiness of persons, they have abandoned more subtle obscurations than even the Arhat has. So it's tricky.

Is that to say a Hinayana Sakadagami is at the level of a First Bhumi bodhisattva? Of course not, because they have not realized the emptiness of all phenomena yet, nor even aspired to. Even a person who has simply taken Bodhisattva vows without reaching any level of realization whatsoever is at a higher level than an Arhat, even though they have removed no afflictions at all, simply because they have begun working the emptiness of all phenomena and have aspired to realize Buddhahood, which, some Arhats have not.
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །

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