Yidam and Dzogchen

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Malcolm
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:02 pm

Kai wrote:
Jamgon Kongtrul is a great Kagyu master but He is a famed Dzogchen master, so His conclusion can't be far away from the truth and it also resolves certain "dilemmas" in this thread.

:cheers:

There are two systems. One in which the sixteen bhumis directly correspond with the thirteen bhumis + three. Another where the bhumis are given as descriptive names for experiences through the four visions.

They are both correct explanations.

N
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Kai
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Kai » Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Kai wrote:
Jamgon Kongtrul is a great Kagyu master but He is a famed Dzogchen master, so His conclusion can't be far away from the truth and it also resolves certain "dilemmas" in this thread.

:cheers:

There are two systems. One in which the sixteen bhumis directly correspond with the thirteen bhumis + three. Another where the bhumis are given as descriptive names for experiences through the four visions.

They are both correct explanations.
I understand your point, Namdrol. However, I flapped through the book again and refer back to JKT's POV. He treated the five paths as a whole and state that all five paths are perfected instantly and together. Interesting enough, never once did he claimed the viewpoint as shown in bold text above which make I wonder why........

As a result, I looked into Longchenpa's written texts (Namkha Longchen & Tshigdon Dzod) and His treatment of the 16 Bhumis as related to the 16 experiences found in the four visions, is basically similar to JKT, so there is nothing to say on this. However, whats that caught my eyes, is the following:
By progressing in the experiences of that meditation, one attains the four visions. First in the (first) vision of direct realization of the ultimate nature, one achieves the experiences of realization equivalent to that of the path of accumulation...............

..........Then in the (second)vision of the increase of experiences which is similar to the path of application..............

.............Then in the (third) vision of perfection of the intrinsic awareness, in the first, middle and final stages, One realize the paths of seeing and meditation (Until the seventh Bhumi).......

Then in the (fourth and last) vision of cessation into the ultimate nature, Because in the Three Pure Stages (8th to 10th Bhumis), the host of conceptual defilements are manifestly exhausted and the gross bodies are exhausted and the delusory perceptions are exahusted, this vision is called the dissolution. This vision is the great luminous intrinsic wisdom.......
It is understood that Three Pure Stages are eighth through the tenth-level of pure bhumis, which in certain Tibetan systems/schools is equivalent to the path of no more learning while the impure Bhumis from the 1st to 7th in those systems, belong to the path of seeing and mediation. And interesting enough, Longchenpa didn't mention 11th to 16th Bhumis or their names at all in this correspondence. He seems to be contended with the fact that the Tenth Bhumi is the penultimate destination for Dzogchen practitioners. Not surprisingly, Longchenpa did the same thing in His treatment of tantric paths earlier by relating each pair of the twenty first knots in the central channels to one Bhumi each while at the conclusion of His test, stating the last knot opening the door to the attainment of the supreme level of Vajradhara.

So, Longchenpa, like JKT (In His own ways) after him, doesn't seem to agree with the system of relating Dzogchen's 16 Bhumis directly with the Sutric ten Bhumis. Furthermore, up to date, I still fail to find a text that talked about a direct correspondence between the former and latter from the two masters which is rather strange since both of them knew and wrote a great deal on Dzogchen and if they found those POVs important, they would have written it down which they didn't.

So, may I ask which Nyingma schools or masters agree with the 10 + 6 Bhumis system? And where can I read more about the correspondence?

Pero
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero » Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:09 pm

Kai, you can read Tibetan?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

blackpath
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by blackpath » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:07 am

mutsuk wrote:
Pero wrote:
Also how about Longde in general? Other than Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche I haven't seen much mention of it. I think I heard Younge Khachab Rinpoche also teaches it?
Khachab Rinpoche has scheduled a Longde retreat in Madison WI June 13-20.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by RobertoKhorviano » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:27 pm

Hi

This is connected to the topic so I thought that I should share this.

I am aware that when a practitioner practises a Yidam in the context of the two stages then he/she should have only one Yidam. Yet I was a little confused because Chogyal Namkhai Norbu transmits many secondary practices and these use different Yidams and seemingly it was ok to use several different of these practises. I've decided to ask Rinpoche about this via email.

Here is His response (cut from the rest of the email - I had other questions which are not relevant to this topic):

"About your second question, you can use hundreds of ydam if you have time and desire, than you can do, there is not limitation.

With many greetings!!! NN."

I wish you all an auspicious day :)

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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:13 pm

Yes, sure you can have hundreds of Yidams, but the more interesting question is how many of them you can realise.

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conebeckham
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by conebeckham » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:04 pm

I appreciate that one "can have many yidams," and I also understand the way CNNR approaches deity yoga, through the lens of Ati, and with an understanding that these deities are reflections of various activities, etc.

I'd like to offer a different perspective, not to contradict, but to widen the discussion a bit. Understanding the nature of the yidam, for those on the path of KyeRim/Dzogrim, one comes to understand the yidam is not a humanoid figure with multiple arms, eyes, implements, etc.

In short, I think Yidam practice in a true Dzogchen context is quite different than Yidam practice in a Sarma "Two Stages" approach, or even in a Nyingma "Mahayoga" approach. But in my view, if you're engaged in Yidam practice as your primary method, it's really a question of one practice, one yidam.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Loren
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Loren » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:12 pm

conebeckham wrote:I appreciate that one "can have many yidams," and I also understand the way CNNR approaches deity yoga, through the lens of Ati, and with an understanding that these deities are reflections of various activities, etc.

I'd like to offer a different perspective, not to contradict, but to widen the discussion a bit. Understanding the nature of the yidam, for those on the path of KyeRim/Dzogrim, one comes to understand the yidam is not a humanoid figure with multiple arms, eyes, implements, etc.

In short, I think Yidam practice in a true Dzogchen context is quite different than Yidam practice in a Sarma "Two Stages" approach, or even in a Nyingma "Mahayoga" approach. But in my view, if you're engaged in Yidam practice as your primary method, it's really a question of one practice, one yidam.
What about the Gelukpa and Chakrasamvara, Guhysamaja and Yamantaka? Seems like different practice for different aspect.
Thank You and Ok!

aka Lorem

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Malcolm
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:20 pm

The Vairocanābhisambodhi Tantra states:
  • Guhyapati, there are two forms of the deity: pure and impure. The pure form has the nature of realization, free from all characteristics. The impure form possesses characteristics such as color and shape.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by conebeckham » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:25 pm

Well.....You'd have to ask a Gelukpa, but it's my impression that most would practice one of these at a time. As I understand it, The Geluk approach is to incorporate facets of those three Tantras--but I don't think that means they are practicing intensive creation stage of all three at the same time.

You could ask Sakyapas who practice Naro Khacho and GyeDor, or Kagyupas who practice Yogini, Samvara..... for Kagyupas, the most common Yidam sadhanas are Phagmo, Demchok, GyalGyam....but for completion stage the famed Six Yogas are the focus, and they incorporate methods found in HevajraTantras, GuhyasamajaTantras, ChakrasamvaraTantras, MahamayaTantras, CatupithaTantras, BuddhakapalaTantras, etc. If you're focusing on Creation Stage, you'd likely concentrate on one yidam at a time, and maybe even engage is completion stage practices specific to that Tantra. Focus on Completion Stage also usually involves one or two deities only.....

There's also a difference between intensive practice of a full sadhana (Nyenpa, etc.) and a daily recitation commitment (GyunKhyer, LamKhyer). Perhaps one is practicing mainly Vajrabhairava, for instance, at this time, but maintaining a daily recitation commitment for other yidams one has previously "accomplished" (completed the Nyenpa/Druppa/Jinsek or whatnot).

As I understand things, in the Sarma one often finds one's Yidam practice only after exposure to a few of the main cycles or sadhanas, and maintains the practice long after the "Accomplishment" of the various stages....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Yeti
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Yeti » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:57 am

conebeckham wrote:I appreciate that one "can have many yidams," and I also understand the way CNNR approaches deity yoga, through the lens of Ati, and with an understanding that these deities are reflections of various activities, etc.

I'd like to offer a different perspective, not to contradict, but to widen the discussion a bit. Understanding the nature of the yidam, for those on the path of KyeRim/Dzogrim, one comes to understand the yidam is not a humanoid figure with multiple arms, eyes, implements, etc.

In short, I think Yidam practice in a true Dzogchen context is quite different than Yidam practice in a Sarma "Two Stages" approach, or even in a Nyingma "Mahayoga" approach. But in my view, if you're engaged in Yidam practice as your primary method, it's really a question of one practice, one yidam.
I think there are many writings by many great practitioners from both Indian and Tibetan lineages that support this view.

At the same time there are much evidence that those who realised their yidam did other practices in order to invoke their particular energy and siddhi in order to support their activity.

In this context I don't see a problem. Out of context, it can poss a problem.
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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heart
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:36 pm

Sorry for the resurrection of this thread but I recently read this interesting little book.

Image

Longchenpa insist, in this book, that one have to practice these four preliminaries before engaging in proper Dzogchen practice.

1. Impermanence
2. Bodhicitta
3. Yidam practice
4. Guru Yoga

The way he introduce the natural state are with bliss, clarity and non-thought. These practices are also described in much detail. Very interesting book.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Virgo
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Virgo » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:42 pm

Since you read the book Magnus, please let us know which tantras he cites in support of that position.

Please provide citations.

Thank you,

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:39 pm

Kevin, there are of course two main Dharmas: The Dharma of Scripture and the Dharma of Realization. Longchenpa is universally regarded as being an incredibly realized Dzogchen master. It's not unlikely that he referenced passages in specific tantras to support his assertion, as he often does that, but he's under no obligation to when his living realization is no less valid than an inanimate book.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:54 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:42 pm
Since you read the book Magnus, please let us know which tantras he cites in support of that position.

Please provide citations.

Thank you,

Kevin
There are a number of quotes from various Tantras in the book, but I don't think he provides any quotes for that point. You should read it Kevin, it is quite interesting for any student of ChNNR. Not because of this particular point but because he makes the point introducing the natural state with the experience of bliss, clarity and non-thought in great detail, just like ChNNR does.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:00 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:39 pm
Kevin, there are of course two main Dharmas: The Dharma of Scripture and the Dharma of Realization. Longchenpa is universally regarded as being an incredibly realized Dzogchen master. It's not unlikely that he referenced passages in specific tantras to support his assertion, as he often does that, but he's under no obligation to when his living realization is no less valid than an inanimate book.
Yeah, true enough.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:26 pm

Magnus, what's the traslation/writing like? Readable?

edit: Nevermind, missed that it was from Padmakara, so it should be good. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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heart
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:02 pm

Pero wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:26 pm
Magnus, what's the traslation/writing like? Readable?

edit: Nevermind, missed that it was from Padmakara, so it should be good. :smile:
Yeah, its really good.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:10 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:36 pm
Sorry for the resurrection of this thread but I recently read this interesting little book.

Image

Longchenpa insist, in this book, that one have to practice these four preliminaries before engaging in proper Dzogchen practice.

1. Impermanence
2. Bodhicitta
3. Yidam practice
4. Guru Yoga

The way he introduce the natural state are with bliss, clarity and non-thought. These practices are also described in much detail. Very interesting book.

/magnus
Yes, because Sem side is the completion stage of Maha and anuyoga. This is also how ChNN teaches the practice sems side in a practical sense.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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heart
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:52 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:10 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:36 pm
Sorry for the resurrection of this thread but I recently read this interesting little book.

Image

Longchenpa insist, in this book, that one have to practice these four preliminaries before engaging in proper Dzogchen practice.

1. Impermanence
2. Bodhicitta
3. Yidam practice
4. Guru Yoga

The way he introduce the natural state are with bliss, clarity and non-thought. These practices are also described in much detail. Very interesting book.

/magnus
Yes, because Sem side is the completion stage of Maha and anuyoga. This is also how ChNN teaches the practice sems side in a practical sense.
Yes, that is a good point. But Longchenpa doesn't really put it like that, he just insist that they are necessary preliminaries,

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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