Respectfully, I say one should not use Dzogchen to prove points.
Aren't you also using dzogchen to prove a point?
Holybla wrote:If someone asks, what is the base? You can answer that. But to use points from the transmission to debate is a misuse of Dzogchen teachings.
You're also using points from transmission to 'debate' (although I'd say this is more of a discussion).
Holybla wrote:If someone says, I am having trouble sleeping how can Dzogchen help? You can advise how to take Bimala and maybe do Mandarava chulen or something like that. Demonstrating your proficiency with Tibetanisms is not showing Dzogchen at all.
I never claimed to be showing dzogchen, and trust me knowing a few tibetan (and sanskrit) terms is a far cry from a proficiency.
Holybla wrote:I understand you feel we are conflicting now so you say "likewise."
I'd hardly call this a conflict, you have your opinion, I have one too, and we sit online and throw them around, it's a good time if you ask me! I was saying "likewise" to point out that if you don't hold yourself to your own standards, you're creating a double-standard.
Holybla wrote:But truthfully, transmission and GY are indeed indispensable to Dzogchen. Nothing else is.
True, but when you twist guru yoga and transmission into a weapon, which is then wielded against another point of view, you're rendering guru yoga and transmission equivalent to whatever intellectual vomit I'm sharing. It's the intellect that accepts and rejects, conventionally we do accept and reject on here and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to watch that subtle slip. Guru yoga as a notion, translated by mind is simply another point of view (you're using to argue against another point of view). I'm about to do the same here but I admit it; guru yoga is guru yoga, the experience, free of mind. That's why it's pointless to debate about dzogchen (though I like to!)
Holybla wrote:Everything else including intellectual ideas are secondary. Intellectual ideas are low on the totem pole of important methods to help gain the view. Once the view is obtained and stable, secondary practices and especially intellectual ideas are passé. At that point, we use letters, syllables and words only to entice the uninitiated, but never to condition or convince. The main way to make connections and help sentient beings are part of transmission.
Also true, however again the intellect can be a useful tool and should be understood, not rejected. On the outset yes it's beneficial to use the traditional methods which don't involve the intellect, however after that point I'd say it's better to create a more overarching and holistic relationship with one's experience, understand how the intellect becomes an obstacle, and the ways to relate to the intellect that are beneficial. There are no limitations once vidyā is definitively recognized. Dzogchen doesn't give credence to the conventional/ultimate dichotomy, however that doesn't mean that the conventional is thrown out the window... and that being the case, it's important to put these things in perspective.
"By examining relative truth, establish absolute truth;
Within absolute truth, see how relative truth arises.
Where the two truths are inseparable, beyond intellect,
is the state of simplicity."
- Dilgo Khyenste Rinpoche
Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche also said during this present retreat; (paraphrased) through the wisdom of vidyā, seek to understand yourself, and by understanding your condition you will be able to relax, through relaxation you will be able to relate to your experience in a way that makes life easy and enjoyable. So there's no issue implementing the discernment gained in vidyā to know yourself, know your condition, understand yourself, understand others, understand thoughts, how we fall into delusion etc... find what works for you and become a master of your domain. The universe trembles in front of the vidyādhara.
"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." - Sun Tzu