Re: The Purpose of Thogal Practice
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:09 pm
Yes, exactly.pemachophel wrote:The way my Teacher explained this was not simply karmic connections but broken samaya.
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Yes, exactly.pemachophel wrote:The way my Teacher explained this was not simply karmic connections but broken samaya.
Note that in Khenpo Ngagchung's Ye-shes bla ma spyi-don, he reads that as "the bacterias of your body will dissolve into lights" (lus kyi srin bu rnams kyang 'od du dengs pa'o), etc. which also makes perfect sense, since according to him, there need be a connection between the one who reaches the Rainbow Body and those he takes with him. However, somewhere else, Longchenpa said (sorry I can't find the exact quote right now, maybe Lama Yangtik, I don't have it at hand) that even sentient beings from lower rebirths such as insects can be referred to here. This is consistent with the notes on the oral transmission of the Thekchok Dzö that JL has compiled. I guess the two interpretations are ok.and even insects will dissolve into lights.
I meant it in a sarcastic way, you know like when someone's poor he's got no friends but if he gets rich suddenly everyone's his friend. Anyway, I must be remembering it poorly, I think it's been years since I heard this.mutsuk wrote:He had quite a number of students during his lifetime. He did Rainbow Body at the time of death, having after that a lot of students does not make any sense. He had a lot of students in the later part of his life and did Rainbow Body at the time of death.
Thank you Mutsuk. But if this can be done why are we still here? How come you can liberate up to 3000? Why not 5000 or more? Why not 1000 or less? This is what doesn't make sense to me. I was thinking maybe it's just that you have to have a really close connection with the 'ja' lus pa (?) for this to be able to work but according to what you say it seems connection doesn't matter, it can be anyone/anything. Is there any more explanation about this?This is a "forceful" liberation.
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Oh I see what you mean now!Pero wrote: I meant it in a sarcastic way, you know like when someone's poor he's got no friends but if he gets rich suddenly everyone's his friend. Anyway, I must be remembering it poorly, I think it's been years since I heard this.
1. Lack of good fortune (or good fortune enough to share ultimate, close spiritual connections with someone reaching Rainbow Body...), 2. this is said to occur during the Bardo of these beings. There are inconsistencies in the texts on this subject. The biography of Kunzang Namkhai Nyingpo says that he "took the sheep" with him during his Rainbow Body, which certainly implies these were still alive before that happened and this implies some kind of forceful Phowa. Yongdzin Rinpoche had explained it like this a few times. Other sources (Khenpo Ngagchung, etc.) state that it occurs during the bardo of these beings. The difference is pertinent, no?Thank you Mutsuk. But if this can be done why are we still here?
Because contemplating the full scale of Thogel visions means to develop within oneself a level of realization that equals that of 3000 Buddhas. This is in particular true if, keeping as long as possible your body in the 3 main postures of Thogel, you practice until the end of the visionary displays (this of course takes years). At that time, you manifest Rainbow Body and your spiritual fortune (equalling that of 3000 Buddhas) enables you to forcefully cause up to 3000 sentient beings reach Buddhahood at the same time during their Bardo. Since they thus become Buddhas at that time, this is the proof that your spiritual fortune is equal to that of 3000 Buddhas. I am not sure I can convey the logic of the process in english in a mode clear enough to ensure understanding, but I'm convinced you see what I mean.How come you can liberate up to 3000? Why not 5000 or more? Why not 1000 or less?
Does that make sense now?This is what doesn't make sense to me.
No, I said that explanations in various sources are not consistent with one another. Some say that you need special connections (particularly close ones in terms of practice, etc.), other say that one can enlarge that scope ("beyond limitations") and deliver beings even during their lifetime. However, in both cases, this is more that scarce. Yongdzin Rinpoche said that one should not put to much hope in that, since people likely to reach Rainbow Body are quite rare... They themselves know if that is going to happen, since there are indubitable signs that start to occur at a certain, precise stage of the visions. But even these do not garantee a Great Transfer or even a Great Rainbow Body, it may "just" be a small transfer or a small Rainbow Body and these do not offer that capacity, despite having travelled the whole path of Thogel.I was thinking maybe it's just that you have to have a really close connection with the 'ja' lus pa (?) for this to be able to work but according to what you say it seems connection doesn't matter,
OK, but that still doesn't really answer the question, "Why 3000?", does it? Even if it was 1000 for each posture, then why 1000 per posture?mutsuk wrote:Because contemplating the full scale of Thogel visions means to develop within oneself a level of realization that equals that of 3000 Buddhas.How come you can liberate up to 3000? Why not 5000 or more? Why not 1000 or less?
I think it just means a lot of. AND why would this number be of any useful importance to anyone. I would be completely happy if I can get to the level of even one half a Buddha.dzogchungpa wrote:OK, but that still doesn't really answer the question, "Why 3000?", does it? Even if it was 1000 for each posture, then why 1000 per posture?mutsuk wrote:Because contemplating the full scale of Thogel visions means to develop within oneself a level of realization that equals that of 3000 Buddhas.How come you can liberate up to 3000? Why not 5000 or more? Why not 1000 or less?
Yes it does. Don't use the key points and you won't have a fortune that equals that of 3000 Buddhas. These key points are very special things. You reach a level of good fortune that enables you to have 3000 beings become Buddhas during their Bardo. Who gets a good fortune that enables one to liberate even only one being in the bardo?dzogchungpa wrote: OK, but that still doesn't really answer the question, "Why 3000?", does it?
No, it is a very precise number, there are other things linked to it that I can't detail here. It is not just "a big number". It has an hermeneutic meaning which is why all texts dealing with that subject say 3000 and not 9000 or 200. They could also use another way of wording their lines if they wanted it to be a big number. It would be very easy.oldbob wrote:I think it just means a lot of.
There are reasons why such a number is mentioned in texts. THere are reasons for everything in Thogel.AND why would this number be of any useful importance to anyone.
True, it is of utmost importance to go beyond the "fears" built up in some books like Dowman's works in which you can read that Thogel is dangerous, etc. This is nonsense. Once you've entered that Path correctly with guidance, there is nothing more natural. However, it is not as easy as some people would describe it. There is a difference in between seeing a couple of thigles and some color and reaching the 3rd vision. This a Path with effort ('bad-bcas) which demands a lot of skills. Reaching the first visions is quite easy, but you can be stuck for years and years in the second one. This is why there are booster teachings (bog 'don) in Thogel which are of crucial importance.The key point is that practitioners should not be afraid to practice Togal and Yangtig.
I know there is this tendency in the DC to use Yangti/Yangtig as meaning "dark retreat" but this is way deluding. Yangti is a doxographical category. It covers standard preliminaries, extraordinary preliminaries, special preliminaries, trekchö, thögel and dark retreat, as well as bardo teachings, zhi khro, etc. Not exclusively dark retreats. Moreover, you have dark retreats in Ati and Chiti (sPyi-ti), not only Yangti. The usage of Yangti=dark retreat does not appear in Yangti texts themselves. It's a simplification, it can be OK, but then many people tend to say Yangti is dark retreat only and that there are no dark retreat in other Dzogchen categories. There are even dark retreats in Longdé and it's not Yangti at all...I highly recommend Yangtig, with the caveat that it is not for everyone.
I don't know what Dowman says but that "correctly" seems to be the key word here.mutsuk wrote: True, it is of utmost importance to go beyond the "fears" built up in some books like Dowman's works in which you can read that Thogel is dangerous, etc. This is nonsense. Once you've entered that Path correctly with guidance, there is nothing more natural.
Well, that is interesting. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by 'hermeneutic'. Are you saying that the number 3000 has some special meaning here or is symbolic in some way?mutsuk wrote:No, it is a very precise number, there are other things linked to it that I can't detail here. It is not just "a big number". It has an hermeneutic meaning which is why all texts dealing with that subject say 3000 and not 9000 or 200. They could also use another way of wording their lines if they wanted it to be a big number. It would be very easy.oldbob wrote:I think it just means a lot of.
There are reasons why such a number is mentioned in texts. THere are reasons for everything in Thogel.AND why would this number be of any useful importance to anyone.
Hermeneutic means interpretative in Greek.dzogchungpa wrote: Well, that is interesting. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by 'hermeneutic'. Are you saying that the number 3000 has some special meaning here or is symbolic in some way?