Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:50 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:38 am
Does the DC practice have a torma?
No, not a shaped one.

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Mantrik
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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Mantrik » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:44 pm

pawel wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:39 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:55 pm
Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:28 pm
Has anyone found out what can be used as a talisman in the naga rite?

DS
I asked but nobody was able to tell me.
It can be anything that is blessed (empowered) with the practice. In the booklet it mentions Rinpoche left a kind of wooden board in Merigar West.
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:31 am
Does anyone know about the origin of ChNN's Naga Rite please?

It seems to follow the Thun format but I wondered if it came from Changchub Dorje or Adzom Drugpa originally.

Anyone know?

Thanks. :)
The core of the practice may come very probably from Adzom Drukpa, just like the Sang. Rinpoche picked it because it's very concise and simple. The format of either short or medium tun is added to give it a form and connect with transmission.
Thank you! :)
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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:54 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:19 pm
If burning incense with animal products such as musk annoys the Nagas, how should we regard butter-lamps?
Butter being an animal product, I wondered.
Burning chemical laden tea lights is probably not too wonderful either.
It is musk in particular, which nagas find toxic.

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Mantrik » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:54 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:19 pm
If burning incense with animal products such as musk annoys the Nagas, how should we regard butter-lamps?
Butter being an animal product, I wondered.
Burning chemical laden tea lights is probably not too wonderful either.
It is musk in particular, which nagas find toxic.
Thinking of the current situation, do any incense or burnt substances annoy Mamos?
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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lelopa
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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by lelopa » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:26 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:54 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:19 pm
If burning incense with animal products such as musk annoys the Nagas, how should we regard butter-lamps?
Butter being an animal product, I wondered.
Burning chemical laden tea lights is probably not too wonderful either.
It is musk in particular, which nagas find toxic.
Thinking of the current situation, do any incense or burnt substances annoy Mamos?
What do you mean with "burnt substances"?
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Mantrik » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:09 am

lelopa wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:26 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:54 pm


It is musk in particular, which nagas find toxic.
Thinking of the current situation, do any incense or burnt substances annoy Mamos?
What do you mean with "burnt substances"?
Well, we burn substances ritually - incense and other materials for Riwo Sangcho, for example.
And I was also thinking of burning flesh, such as cremation of corpses.
It's a bit off topic, I know, but came to mind because of the current virus problems and the rituals being performed re. Mamos.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:15 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:09 am
lelopa wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:26 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:27 pm


Thinking of the current situation, do any incense or burnt substances annoy Mamos?
What do you mean with "burnt substances"?
Well, we burn substances ritually - incense and other materials for Riwo Sangcho, for example.
And I was also thinking of burning flesh, such as cremation of corpses.
It's a bit off topic, I know, but came to mind because of the current virus problems and the rituals being performed re. Mamos.
there is a text, divine blue water, in lotsawa house that maybe you'll like. but i think that for offering specific things one must be capable to adress the specific group since some things are liked by some but disliked by others; it's a bit more complicated.

there are general things like medicines (clove, cardamom, etc.), semi precious stones (tuquoise, carnelian, citrine, etc.), metals (copper, iron/steel, bronze, silver, gold) that are more "safe", powdered. and it goes quite well, it helps supporting various offerings, etc.

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Mantrik » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:58 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:15 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:09 am
lelopa wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:26 am


What do you mean with "burnt substances"?
Well, we burn substances ritually - incense and other materials for Riwo Sangcho, for example.
And I was also thinking of burning flesh, such as cremation of corpses.
It's a bit off topic, I know, but came to mind because of the current virus problems and the rituals being performed re. Mamos.
there is a text, divine blue water, in lotsawa house that maybe you'll like. but i think that for offering specific things one must be capable to adress the specific group since some things are liked by some but disliked by others; it's a bit more complicated.

there are general things like medicines (clove, cardamom, etc.), semi precious stones (tuquoise, carnelian, citrine, etc.), metals (copper, iron/steel, bronze, silver, gold) that are more "safe", powdered. and it goes quite well, it helps supporting various offerings, etc.
Hi. :)
Yes, I have seen the practice and the list of substances.
I was just asking about substances which we should NOT burn as it would specifically annoy Mamos.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:35 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:58 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:15 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:09 am

Well, we burn substances ritually - incense and other materials for Riwo Sangcho, for example.
And I was also thinking of burning flesh, such as cremation of corpses.
It's a bit off topic, I know, but came to mind because of the current virus problems and the rituals being performed re. Mamos.
there is a text, divine blue water, in lotsawa house that maybe you'll like. but i think that for offering specific things one must be capable to adress the specific group since some things are liked by some but disliked by others; it's a bit more complicated.

there are general things like medicines (clove, cardamom, etc.), semi precious stones (tuquoise, carnelian, citrine, etc.), metals (copper, iron/steel, bronze, silver, gold) that are more "safe", powdered. and it goes quite well, it helps supporting various offerings, etc.
Hi. :)
Yes, I have seen the practice and the list of substances.
I was just asking about substances which we should NOT burn as it would specifically annoy Mamos.
yes yes, i mentioned bcause dealing with real meat can be a bit more delicate :)

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:38 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:58 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:15 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:09 am

Well, we burn substances ritually - incense and other materials for Riwo Sangcho, for example.
And I was also thinking of burning flesh, such as cremation of corpses.
It's a bit off topic, I know, but came to mind because of the current virus problems and the rituals being performed re. Mamos.
there is a text, divine blue water, in lotsawa house that maybe you'll like. but i think that for offering specific things one must be capable to adress the specific group since some things are liked by some but disliked by others; it's a bit more complicated.

there are general things like medicines (clove, cardamom, etc.), semi precious stones (tuquoise, carnelian, citrine, etc.), metals (copper, iron/steel, bronze, silver, gold) that are more "safe", powdered. and it goes quite well, it helps supporting various offerings, etc.
Hi. :)
Yes, I have seen the practice and the list of substances.
I was just asking about substances which we should NOT burn as it would specifically annoy Mamos.
Corpses in large numbers, etc.

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Mantrik » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:38 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:58 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:15 pm


there is a text, divine blue water, in lotsawa house that maybe you'll like. but i think that for offering specific things one must be capable to adress the specific group since some things are liked by some but disliked by others; it's a bit more complicated.

there are general things like medicines (clove, cardamom, etc.), semi precious stones (tuquoise, carnelian, citrine, etc.), metals (copper, iron/steel, bronze, silver, gold) that are more "safe", powdered. and it goes quite well, it helps supporting various offerings, etc.
Hi. :)
Yes, I have seen the practice and the list of substances.
I was just asking about substances which we should NOT burn as it would specifically annoy Mamos.
Corpses in large numbers, etc.
Yes, I recall you mentioned that as causing provocation.
So, little chance of individually pissing them off, then.
Thanks. :)
Edit: With a different cultural perspective, Mongolian shamans are to kill sheep and burn the carcases as an offering to end the coronavirus epidemic. Hopefully too small scale to anger Mamos.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Norwegian » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:11 pm
Edit: With a different cultural perspective, Mongolian shamans are to kill sheep and burn the carcases as an offering to end the coronavirus epidemic. Hopefully too small scale to anger Mamos.
That sounds like a really bad idea.
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The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Mantrik » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:23 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:11 pm
Edit: With a different cultural perspective, Mongolian shamans are to kill sheep and burn the carcases as an offering to end the coronavirus epidemic. Hopefully too small scale to anger Mamos.
That sounds like a really bad idea.
To us, maybe, but not to them, of course.
Every culture will have its own idea how to deal with the spirits and deities and have their own perception of the nature of the virus.
Animal sacrifice will be a feature in some rituals, for sure.
We must do what we think best, of course, but it is interesting to observe how different cultures are responding.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:08 am

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:23 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:11 pm
Edit: With a different cultural perspective, Mongolian shamans are to kill sheep and burn the carcases as an offering to end the coronavirus epidemic. Hopefully too small scale to anger Mamos.
That sounds like a really bad idea.
To us, maybe, but not to them, of course.
Every culture will have its own idea how to deal with the spirits and deities and have their own perception of the nature of the virus.
Animal sacrifice will be a feature in some rituals, for sure.
We must do what we think best, of course, but it is interesting to observe how different cultures are responding.
i find animal sacrifice a sadistic and disgusting thing, animals cannot decide. why shamans doesn't offer their own lives instead? frak idiots.

i remember i read that GP said that it is not good, and predicted that killing animals saying "it's an offering" would be a clear sign of degeneration.

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Tenma » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:54 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:08 am
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:23 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 pm

That sounds like a really bad idea.
To us, maybe, but not to them, of course.
Every culture will have its own idea how to deal with the spirits and deities and have their own perception of the nature of the virus.
Animal sacrifice will be a feature in some rituals, for sure.
We must do what we think best, of course, but it is interesting to observe how different cultures are responding.
i find animal sacrifice a sadistic and disgusting thing, animals cannot decide. why shamans doesn't offer their own lives instead? frak idiots.

i remember i read that GP said that it is not good, and predicted that killing animals saying "it's an offering" would be a clear sign of degeneration.
Who’s “GP?” Also, animal sacrifice has been an ancient practice preceding the Buddha, ancient civilizations, and the like, going back to our nomadic days and perhaps beyond, so what degeneration do you mean?

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:00 pm

Tenma wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:54 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:08 am
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:23 pm


To us, maybe, but not to them, of course.
Every culture will have its own idea how to deal with the spirits and deities and have their own perception of the nature of the virus.
Animal sacrifice will be a feature in some rituals, for sure.
We must do what we think best, of course, but it is interesting to observe how different cultures are responding.
i find animal sacrifice a sadistic and disgusting thing, animals cannot decide. why shamans doesn't offer their own lives instead? frak idiots.

i remember i read that GP said that it is not good, and predicted that killing animals saying "it's an offering" would be a clear sign of degeneration.
Who’s “GP?” Also, animal sacrifice has been an ancient practice preceding the Buddha, ancient civilizations, and the like, going back to our nomadic days and perhaps beyond, so what degeneration do you mean?
Guru Padmasambhava. i meant degeneration within buddhism :P.

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by pawel » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:12 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:09 am
lelopa wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:26 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:27 pm


Thinking of the current situation, do any incense or burnt substances annoy Mamos?
What do you mean with "burnt substances"?
Well, we burn substances ritually - incense and other materials for Riwo Sangcho, for example.
And I was also thinking of burning flesh, such as cremation of corpses.
It's a bit off topic, I know, but came to mind because of the current virus problems and the rituals being performed re. Mamos.
Mamos are offended by air pollution, the substances that are created by burning rubbish, plastic and so on. No ritual substances offend them as far as I know.

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by pawel » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:17 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:23 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:11 pm
Edit: With a different cultural perspective, Mongolian shamans are to kill sheep and burn the carcases as an offering to end the coronavirus epidemic. Hopefully too small scale to anger Mamos.
That sounds like a really bad idea.
To us, maybe, but not to them, of course.
Every culture will have its own idea how to deal with the spirits and deities and have their own perception of the nature of the virus.
Animal sacrifice will be a feature in some rituals, for sure.
We must do what we think best, of course, but it is interesting to observe how different cultures are responding.
And human sacriface is even more ancient, isn't it?

Actually, your assumption of different cultures having their own ways is true but that does not make those ways legitimate in any way. Animal sacriface is not a good way of dealing with anything and these things being carried on in India and eventually elsewhere is indeed a degeneration, a degeneration of spirituality.
Last edited by pawel on Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by pawel » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:26 pm

Tenma wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:54 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:08 am
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:23 pm


To us, maybe, but not to them, of course.
Every culture will have its own idea how to deal with the spirits and deities and have their own perception of the nature of the virus.
Animal sacrifice will be a feature in some rituals, for sure.
We must do what we think best, of course, but it is interesting to observe how different cultures are responding.
i find animal sacrifice a sadistic and disgusting thing, animals cannot decide. why shamans doesn't offer their own lives instead? frak idiots.

i remember i read that GP said that it is not good, and predicted that killing animals saying "it's an offering" would be a clear sign of degeneration.
Who’s “GP?” Also, animal sacrifice has been an ancient practice preceding the Buddha, ancient civilizations, and the like, going back to our nomadic days and perhaps beyond, so what degeneration do you mean?
Buddha Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche, who appered on this Earth 18000 years ago, according to the native religion of Tibet, Yungdrung Bon, taught how to use ritual cakes (in shapes of animals) instead of animal sacriface. Some Bon shamans were using animal sacriface practices. Bon means the whole od shamanic traditions known in Tibet, and they are also similar to those of Mongolian shamans.
Some of those traditions prevailed despite the appearance of Yungdrung Bon and then Buddhism.
Anyhow, 18000 years is quite long...

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Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite

Post by Mantrik » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:50 pm

pawel wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:17 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:23 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 pm

That sounds like a really bad idea.
To us, maybe, but not to them, of course.
Every culture will have its own idea how to deal with the spirits and deities and have their own perception of the nature of the virus.
Animal sacrifice will be a feature in some rituals, for sure.
We must do what we think best, of course, but it is interesting to observe how different cultures are responding.
And human sacriface is even more ancient, isn't it?

Actually, your assumption of different cultures having their own ways is true but that does not make those ways legitimate in any way. Animal sacriface is not a good way of dealing with anything and these things being carrier on in India and eventually elsewhere is indeed a degeneration, a degeneration of spirituality.
I've checked my grammar and syntax and can't find any way my words can be interpreted as supporting sacrifice of any description, yet twice people's replies seem to be inferring that perspective. Odd.
(On this forum I have been very clear many times about my abhorrence of any deliberate animal killing, whether for sacrifice or food. The shamans I know also understand my view, and of course disagree. )

Yes, human sacrifice is still practised in India, albeit rarely.

Glad your understanding of the Mamos complements the views I've had from other sources, but if our offering is 100 slaughtered and burned animals it may be a different story.

I wonder if there is a list somewhere of all the substances favoured as offerings by each class of spirits.
Sang and Serkyem seem the safest bet.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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