heart wrote:Dronma wrote:WmBainbridge wrote:On good authority, one can realize lhundrup while extracting the oil of sesame seeds for prostitutes. It isn't really subject to a proprietary method. According to ChNNR, as attested to by his student Jim Valby, Longde and Thögal are independent paths, either of which can lead to rainbow body, which is not precisely the same thing as lhundrub.
Thank you for this info.
It is how I understand it also.
Moreover, the complete realization is kadag and lhundrub together, without separation.
Yes, they are inseparable, not different goals.
/magnus
heart wrote:Dronma wrote:WmBainbridge wrote:On good authority, one can realize lhundrup while extracting the oil of sesame seeds for prostitutes. It isn't really subject to a proprietary method. According to ChNNR, as attested to by his student Jim Valby, Longde and Thögal are independent paths, either of which can lead to rainbow body, which is not precisely the same thing as lhundrub.
Thank you for this info.
It is how I understand it also.
Moreover, the complete realization is kadag and lhundrub together, without separation.
Yes, they are inseparable, not different goals.
/magnus
All excellent posts!
my 2 cents.
Using foreign terms is confusing for a simple mind like mine. I have a hard enough time understanding what is meant by common English. So once defined I will stick to English. So I will assume here that what we are talking about here are the concepts of Kadak, "pure from the beginning" and Lhundrup, "spontaneously arising, which are usually mentioned together."
Magnus is precise in pointing out that these are two inseparable aspects of the same thing. You can call this the state of "instant presence." Pure from the beginning, means that all phenomena are empty of self nature - but this is just a concept. Spontaneously arising means that whatever arises in your continuum appears and vanishes without grasping or rejection - but this is just a concept.
In the pointing out instructions from a Dzogchen Master, we are introduced directly to the non-dual state of pure from the beginning and spontaneously arising, but there are no words to describe it, like trying to write on water or air. So we call it pure from the beginning and spontaneously arising if we want to talk about it later, but this is not the same thing as direct experience itself.
Going back to the OP question, this now redefines the question as: Only way to realize instant presence is longde or thogal.
Longde (Wylie: kLong-sde; Sanskrit: Abhyantaravarga) is the name of one of three scriptural divisions within Atiyoga, also known as Dzogchen (Wylie: rDzogs-chen) or the Great Perfection which is itself the pinnacle of the ninefold division of practice according to the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism.
The name Longde is translated as 'Space Division' or 'Space Series' of Dzogchen and emphasizes the emptiness (strong-pa) or spaciousness (klong) aspect of the Natural State.
Tögal (Tib. ཐོད་རྒལ་, Wyl. thod rgal) — one of the two aspects, along with trekchö, of Dzogchen practice[1].
Tögal, translated as ‘direct crossing’, ‘the direct approach’ or ‘leapover’, can bring very quickly the actual realization of the three kayas in this lifetime, and thus is a more rapid way of bringing about the dissolution of the practitioner’s karmic vision. The practice of tögal brings the realization of ‘spontaneous presence’ (Tib. ལྷུན་གྲུབ་, lhundrup), and it can only be undertaken by a practitioner who has first gained stability in the practice of kadak trekchö.
Longde:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longde_%28Dzogchen%29
Togal:
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=T%C3%B6gal
So the OP question then redefines as: Only way to realize instant presence is by following the "space" division of Dzogchen, or by practicing leap-over, as written of by Sogyal Rinpoche, " The tögal practitioner works directly with the clear light that dwells inherently, “spontaneously present,” within all phenomena, using specific and exceptionally powerful exercises to reveal it within himself or herself.
So with this understanding, the answer to the OP question is no.
Instant presence is found by taking the pointing out instruction of direct introduction from a Dzogchen Master. Confidence and continuation in the state of instant presence, are gained by following the three series of Dzogchen: the mind series, the space series and the secret instruction series.
Leap-over and the dark retreat, are techniques that enable realization in one life.
Guruyoga is used in the DC to mean the state of instant presence. In common usage it refers to a devotional practice of creative visualization and absorption, based on devotion to a Teacher, of historical or present time. One cannot say that Guruyoga is slower than leap-over and dark retreat. What is appropriate for each practitioner is given in the instructions from your spiritual Master.
Kor zhi is the practice of the 100 peaceful and wrathful deities and is usually used to help a dead person, but can also be practiced as a creative visualization and absorption practice, by itself.
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... ul_deities
Spyi ti:
spyi ti'i rnal 'byor
Chiti Yoga. One of the subdivisions of the Instruction Section of Dzogchen: Ati, Chiti and Yangti. Chiti is defined as covering the general points of Dzogchen [RY]
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/spyi ... al_%27byor
and
http://www.thlib.org/collections/texts/ ... ermano/b7/
The key point of all of this blah blah, is that intellectual understandings are of absolutely no use when circumstances change.
At the time of death only your direct experiences of spiritual practice will be of any use at all.
So to answer the OP's final question, yes all these things are taught today by many Dzogchen Masters.
Find a Master and happily practice!
Whew - lots of words!
Keep the questions coming until there are no more questions and you can relax into instant presence, integrating 24/7 (in a non-dual way).
Hope this helps.
ob