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Thigle

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:29 pm
by Snovid

Re: Thigle

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:58 pm
by Roland
I wondered the same thing when I saw the two different tigles. I never asked anybody so I never received an answer. Maybe this topic fits better in the Dzogchen forum.

Re: Thigle

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:44 am
by krodha
From a series of posts on the 'Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu' thread in the 'Dzogchen' forum:

Dronma wrote:
...the order of the colors of the 5 elements depends on the practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you are correct: there are two systems.

The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam) [blue, green, white, red, yellow]

The Longsal system (which is the classical order of Indian cosmology): space, air, fire, water, earth (e yam ram bam lam). [blue, green, red, white, yellow]

Also these very same seed syllables in the latter system are also found in precisely the same order in Hindu element purification practice.

----------------------

heart wrote:

Thanks, but the tigle in dronmas post is space, air, fire, earth, water is that correct or not?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as it should be IN THE THUN SYSTEM.

LONGSAL is different.

M

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Mr. G wrote:
If we're doing an Anuyoga practice, we would use the one in the thun?

Malcolm wrote:
It depends: if you are doing an Anuyoga practice like Jnanadakini you use the Longsal system. If you are doing something not connected with Longsal, you use Thun system. The system used in the Thun book comes from lower tantras.

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Finney wrote:
Malcolm,
Here [referencing Malcolm's response to heart's post] you seem to be agreeing that the proper Thun order is: space, air, fire, earth, water.

But earlier you wrote:
[Malcolm wrote:
The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam)]



so, I'm a little confused. Can you help clarify it for me?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh I see... I was not paying careful attention. Also Thun [practice book] cover is out of order. There is no system where water is last. That is just for aesthetics. It has been like that for 30 years. Since Crystal [and the Way of Light]. My bad.

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Pero wrote:
There are two different things. One is the order of mantras in the purification of the 5 elements. This is different in Tun and Longsal. The other is the order of colors of the thigle when doing GY. As far as I know, these two aren't related. I'm pretty sure Rinpoche talked about it himself and I'd give you a reference but after 14 hours of work I don't really feel like going through a 1000 pages right now to find it (or it could have been during a webcast in which case I'll never find it haha).

Re: Thigle

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:49 am
by krodha
So apparently that last image is not representative of any system, since there are no systems which have water [white] positioned last.

Re: Thigle

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:25 am
by Stewart
Then again, somewhere there is agreement that the cover of the Thun book is correct for Guru Yoga! With white on the outside... I for one would love a definitive answer.

Re: Thigle

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:04 am
by Virgo
This thead seems to be Dzogchen specific.

Kevin

Re: Thigle

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:36 pm
by Stewart
Oh yeah... Never noticed, just opened it from 'view active topics'

Re: Thigle

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:48 pm
by Dronma
This discussion had taken place also in the past.
Please, look for references here:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 80#p106879

The correct order of the colors for the Ati Guru Yoga is exactly like in this picture (blue, green, red, yellow white):

Image

Re: Thigle

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:17 pm
by Stewart
Yeah, that's what I thought Dronma.....

.... But then on the page after you linked to Malcolm seems to suggest the Thun book image is for aesthetic purposes, I may be wrong.... To be honest, I don't think it's a deal breaker, so I'm not going to worry about it too much.

Re: Thigle

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:24 pm
by Dronma
Stewart wrote:Yeah, that's what I thought Dronma.....

.... But then on the page after you linked to Malcolm seems to suggest the Thun book image is for aesthetic purposes, I may be wrong.... To be honest, I don't think it's a deal breaker, so I'm not going to worry about it too much.
That was what Malcolm said at that time.
I do not agree with his explanation.

Re: Thigle

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:22 pm
by Stewart
Thanks Dronma.... I've emailed ChNN as it seems to resurface now and then... Obviously he's busy right now, so I'll just bide my time until he replies, and post his answer.

To be clear I asked about the precise order for Ati Guru Yoga. I'm actually in the process of commissioning an 'A in Thigle' calligraphy/painting from an artist friend of mine, so I'll follow ChNN's definitive advice.

Re: Thigle

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:53 pm
by krodha
Stewart wrote:Thanks Dronma.... I've emailed ChNN as it seems to resurface now and then... Obviously he's busy right now, so I'll just bide my time until he replies, and post his answer.

To be clear I asked about the precise order for Ati Guru Yoga. I'm actually in the process of commissioning an 'A in Thigle' calligraphy/painting from an artist friend of mine, so I'll follow ChNN's definitive advice.
Please share Rinpoche's response when you hear back. And post a photo of that art when it's finished, would love to see it!

Re: Thigle

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:00 am
by Dronma
Stewart wrote:Thanks Dronma.... I've emailed ChNN as it seems to resurface now and then... Obviously he's busy right now, so I'll just bide my time until he replies, and post his answer.

To be clear I asked about the precise order for Ati Guru Yoga. I'm actually in the process of commissioning an 'A in Thigle' calligraphy/painting from an artist friend of mine, so I'll follow ChNN's definitive advice.

Well done, Stewart! :twothumbsup:
Please, let us know what Rinpoche will reply.

Re: Thigle

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:49 am
by Stewart
Yes, no problem... I will post Rinpoche’s response.


It may take some time for the painting to be ready... My friend is an established, in demand artist. However he's definitely agreed to do it, I've ran over the basic layout with him, White A in a five coloured Thigle.... 12x12 inch canvas... Not decided whether to frame it or mount on brocade yet... I'll decide when it's finished.

Re: Thigle

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:53 am
by Snovid
Ok
And when I do guruyoga,I become 'A'
then visualize the 'A' as in the picture?
Or vice versa,like person who staring at me (as I,when I was looking at the picture)
and see what I see when I look at the picture?

It is a mirror reflection?
The right side of the 'A' on picture is my left side?

Re: Thigle

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:35 pm
by Sönam
Snowid wrote:Ok
And when I do guruyoga,I become 'A'
then visualize the 'A' as in the picture?
Or vice versa,like person who staring at me (as I,when I was looking at the picture)
and see what I see when I look at the picture?

It is a mirror reflection?
The right side of the 'A' on picture is my left side?
it's like you are behind (at the back of the) A, so juste reverse ...

Sönam

Re: Thigle

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:51 pm
by Dronma
Snowid, you are the A.
There is no separation in between you and something outside or in front of you.
Rinpoche explains all these often as part of the transmission.
Moreover, the instructions of the transmission cannot be discussed in a public forum. Please keep this in mind when you post questions here. :namaste:

Re: Thigle

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:03 pm
by Snovid
instructions of the transmission cannot be discussed in a public forum.
Even when the webcast is open?

Re: Thigle

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:16 pm
by Dronma
Snowid wrote: Even when the webcast is open?
Yes, even when the webcast is open.
We have to distinguish that Rinpoche is the ONE who transmits to us.
Even if we have received those transmissions, we are not yet capable to transmit those info to anyone. Much less in public.
Moreover, Rinpoche never participates in public forums for giving instructions and explanations.
SSI webcasts are HIS frequency, in which we have to synchronize in order to receive transmission and information.
And from what I have heard, he does not approve his teachings to be discussed publicly on internet.

Re: Thigle

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:47 am
by muni
Not sure I understand but maybe far away there is a light shining by the grace of all posts. To say it with a handful of vocabulary: you must be the clear space itself in order to see all are so and guide my suffering mistaken...ness.

Then the ocean guides the 'ugly-beautiful fishes' minds' which are not different from own mind. We(I) people-appearance focus in misperception on a maha appearance-master, the leader and we the great ones and others waahaa.... We grasp the solid finger of our habitual perception of a master. In the light of devotion the appearance is not necessary there, this bright devotion is not other than boundless love for all in maha peace. This is what "a Master" is pointing to, in my simple understanding. So apologize.

At least I can say it nicely. And what all my talk has to do with the tread about the thigle?

Oops! :toilet: