Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

[明安 Myoan]

Hey guys
Goat, Guty explained his experience in his reply to me a little farther up.

I think confusion you might encounter comes from why someone with such experience and capacity for direct insight would seek an avenue of knowledge that belongs to a category altogether different from the practices that would lead to such phenomena.

If you're interested in the paths that can consummate in rainbow body, then is basing your decision on knowledge several degrees removed from your personal situation the best way to proceed?
If you aren't interested, then why accumulate layers of abstraction "this verification method unexperienced by me makes X claims about the practices of others"? Another shiny idea to put on the shelf?
Maybe I'm being nosy.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with questions and curiosity.
But depending on the motivation, it could be a waste of time, at the very least as an unfalsifiable fruitless search.

[dharmagoat]

Hey guys
Goat, Guty explained his experience in his reply to me a little farther up.

It was rather impolite and clumsy of me, but I wanted to test these claims:

I need no approach and I do not expect anything, there is no suffering, these things completely fell off two years ago. There are no more processes but gazing and abidance.

there is nothing to be discarded, this never comes to mind. I live in contemplative state that was maturing last 18 years. It is not even possible to think in terms of being distracted or being focused.

Anyway, I'm done now. I will leave baiting to those that have perfected the art.

My apologies to everyone, especially Guty.

[Guty]

Hey guys
Goat, Guty explained his experience in his reply to me a little farther up.

It was rather impolite and clumsy of me, but I wanted to test these claims:

I need no approach and I do not expect anything, there is no suffering, these things completely fell off two years ago. There are no more processes but gazing and abidance.

there is nothing to be discarded, this never comes to mind. I live in contemplative state that was maturing last 18 years. It is not even possible to think in terms of being distracted or being focused.

Anyway, I'm done now. I will leave baiting to those that have perfected the art.

My apologies to everyone, especially Guty.

I thought, more people, more experiences, more likelihood I can get closer to some relevant information regarding the phenomena of s.c. Rainbow Body. And my reservation was never directed to dharma itself (however, I may have more doubts about worldly affections whether they are so solid as they appear, but the dharma is the basis of it all. It is prior to any other exoperience.) So, let's make clear once and for all, I expressed my unwillingness to accept the physical aspects of the phenomenon, without some bulletproof evidence. Wanted to know if it indeed does happen and if there are some reliable accounts. So, please, bear in mind, the "reliability" was meant in this context. As a person, who is more willing to believe direct observation or those, who have documented and analysed the event directly and have credentials in science, then third party allegations and indirect accounts from those who may have personal agendas producing such stories. I believed I was entitled to at least ask whether such evidence ever existed or it is entirely rumour. I am not commenting at all on inner consistency of the thodgal teaching, which in fact may lead to the exhaustion of all phenomena from the point of view of the subject, while outer signs for the external observer may not necessarily manifest. Or finding out whether or not there are also others like me, who are simply not satisfied with rumours and legendary tales. Yogi does not necessarily have to be bound by obligatory belief systems, rather, relias entirely on actual experience that is availeble to his observational capabilities. What Malcolm eventually wrote, literally delivered exactly what I needed. Thanx again to all.

[dmr82]

Guty are you dmr82 on vajracakra?

He isn't. Dmr82 believes the physical body is merely a result of karma/delusion. Once karmic winds get exhausted through completing the visions the body self-liberates into the basic space of phenomena. The self-aware enlightened mandala perfect from beginningless time becomes evident and one reaches perfect buddhahood. Your physical body is no more real than the thoughts that appear in your mind. Both are result of karmic winds/delusion and both self-liberate when abiding in rigpa. Rigpa is how karmic winds get exhausted. The visions arise as potentiality of rigpa. If the visions are completed before death the body self-liberates completely into the great transfer without having to go through the bardo. People of such capacity can leave handprints in stone, dive into earth, penetrate mountain rock, sit in fire, walk on water, and fly in space. As for people not believing this is possible this is related to ones capacity and potential.

[Guty]

People of such capacity can leave handprints in stone, dive into earth, penetrate mountain rock, sit in fire, walk on water, and fly in space. As for people not believing this is possible this is related to ones capacity and potential.

There is no problem with realizing the belief in any kind of quackery, people in fact do it all the time and gullibility of this proportion is in fact much more usual than being of sane and realistic mind. The capacity of practitioners will be not demonstrated through blind faith. I have seen the alleged footprints in granite - the whole thing is just preposterous and people with common sense will not spend two seconds over it. flying in the air and footprints in granite, stopping the Sun for three days and dancing in fire. yeah, sure, my friend.

[Malcolm]

Guty are you dmr82 on vajracakra?

He isn't. Dmr82 believes the physical body is merely a result of karma/delusion. Once karmic winds get exhausted through completing the visions the body self-liberates into the basic space of phenomena. The self-aware enlightened mandala perfect from beginningless time becomes evident and one reaches perfect buddhahood. Your physical body is no more real than the thoughts that appear in your mind. Both are result of karmic winds/delusion and both self-liberate when abiding in rigpa. Rigpa is how karmic winds get exhausted. The visions arise as potentiality of rigpa. If the visions are completed before death the body self-liberates completely into the great transfer without having to go through the bardo. People of such capacity can leave handprints in stone, dive into earth, penetrate mountain rock, sit in fire, walk on water, and fly in space.

That's what the texts say. Sounds easy, but it is not so easy. Even ChNN does not claim any of these abilities for himself.

[Guty]

"Once karmic winds get exhausted through completing the visions the body self-liberates into the basic space of phenomena. The self-aware enlightened mandala perfect from beginningless time becomes evident and one reaches perfect buddhahood. Your physical body is no more real than the thoughts that appear in your mind. Both are result of karmic winds/delusion and both self-liberate when abiding in rigpa. Rigpa is how karmic winds get exhausted. The visions arise as potentiality of rigpa. If the visions are completed before death the body self-liberates completely into the great transfer without having to go through the bardo."

What is the source of this text? The Circle of the Sun from Tsele Natsok Rangdrol or some other?

[dmr82]

... being of sane and realistic mind.

There is no sane and realistic in samsara. It seemingly exists but is no more real than last nights dream.

It's the result of a deluded mind. That's why it's so hard to wake up. Direct introduction is indispensable.

[Malcolm]

"Once karmic winds get exhausted through completing the visions the body self-liberates into the basic space of phenomena. The self-aware enlightened mandala perfect from beginningless time becomes evident and one reaches perfect buddhahood. Your physical body is no more real than the thoughts that appear in your mind. Both are result of karmic winds/delusion and both self-liberate when abiding in rigpa. Rigpa is how karmic winds get exhausted. The visions arise as potentiality of rigpa. If the visions are completed before death the body self-liberates completely into the great transfer without having to go through the bardo."

What is the source of this text? The Circle of the Sun from Tsele Natsok Rangdrol or some other?

His statement is more or less correct, if not very complete.

[Guty]

All the footprints and handprints in the granite that I saw were obvious fakes (most likely made by religious folks to improve faith in suggestible people). If such phenomena ever been produced on extremely rare occasions, these probably try to emulate that pattern. Otherwise, I put it into the same category as any kind of scam. Detrimental effect of such scams are obvious, when you examine things more carefully and also consider consequences. I have seen flying bird, rogallos, flying squirells and aeroplanes, but never people, mahasiddhas or normal human folks.

With regards to sanity, it is something that distinguishes dreamers from achievers. A yogi has to live down to earth or he is in danger that he gets lost in the world of phenoomenas he will no longer be able to discern, since his discriminative faculties became blunt and because of that, he is in grave danger of confusion. The intellect of enlightened person is so well founded in realism that he would not be recognized from the materialist, due to his remaining on ground; yet at the same time he is in the other world, where he sees all these phenomena as they are, pure dharmata. Both are not in contradiction, but they have dual aspects how they appear and both have their value.

[dmr82]

All the footprints and handprints in the granite that I saw were obvious fakes (most likely made by religious folks to improve faith in suggestible people). If such phenomena ever been produced on extremely rare occasions, these probably try to emulate that pattern. Otherwise, I put it into the same category as any kind of scam. Detrimental effect of such scams are obvious, when you examine things more carefully and also consider consequences. I have seen flying bird, rogallos, flying squirells and aeroplanes, but never people, mahasiddhas or normal human folks.

Actually there is a master from the daoist tradition in Rome who can leave handprints in rock.

Also there is one in the Netherlands who can do it and externalize or project visionary phenomena as apparitions.

As for the chances of you meeting them or they revealing themselves to you probably not going to happen.

So in a sense you are right. These things aren't real to you and don't sound realistic in your current experience of reality.

Nothing to do with faith. Only capacity and potential.

[Guty]

All the footprints and handprints in the granite that I saw were obvious fakes (most likely made by religious folks to improve faith in suggestible people). If such phenomena ever been produced on extremely rare occasions, these probably try to emulate that pattern. Otherwise, I put it into the same category as any kind of scam. Detrimental effect of such scams are obvious, when you examine things more carefully and also consider consequences. I have seen flying bird, rogallos, flying squirells and aeroplanes, but never people, mahasiddhas or normal human folks.

Actually there is a master from the daoist tradition in Rome who can leave handprints in rock.

Also there is one in the Netherlands who can do it and externalize or project visionary phenomena as apparitions.

As for the chances of you meeting them or they revealing themselves to you probably not going to happen.

So in a sense you are right. These things aren't real to you and don't sound realistic in your current experience of reality.

Nothing to do with faith. Only capacity and potential.

I see white flying unicorns too, all the time around myself in my enlightened visions, but they also do not belong to your current experience of reality.
I doubt they would fly over to you just to inroduce themselves. No pun intended dear friend.
Unless there is a documented observation that holds water, you believe in flying unicorns. It has nothing to do with capacity for understanding the nature of reality. Do not delude yourself, get back to earth.

[dmr82]

I see white flying unicorns too, all the time around myself in my enlightened visions, but they also do not belong to your current experience of reality. I doubt they would fly over to you just to inroduce themselves. No pun intended dear friend. Unless there is a documented observation that holds water, you believe in flying unicorns. It has nothing to do with capacity for understanding the nature of reality. Do not delude yourself, get back to earth.

I have a picture of the one left by the master from Holland. But even if I were to post it you would say this is fake. So unless such a being reveals himself to you and demonstrates this out of compassion there is no way you will believe this is a possibility. And if you were to witness such a thing in your current condition you would probably have a mental breakdown and go insane.

[Pero]

Guty are you dmr82 on vajracakra?

He isn't. Dmr82 believes the physical body is merely a result of karma/delusion. Once karmic winds get exhausted through completing the visions the body self-liberates into the basic space of phenomena. The self-aware enlightened mandala perfect from beginningless time becomes evident and one reaches perfect buddhahood. Your physical body is no more real than the thoughts that appear in your mind. Both are result of karmic winds/delusion and both self-liberate when abiding in rigpa. Rigpa is how karmic winds get exhausted. The visions arise as potentiality of rigpa. If the visions are completed before death the body self-liberates completely into the great transfer without having to go through the bardo. People of such capacity can leave handprints in stone, dive into earth, penetrate mountain rock, sit in fire, walk on water, and fly in space.

That's what the texts say. Sounds easy, but it is not so easy. Even ChNN does not claim any of these abilities for himself.

Malcolm, if it's not too much of a personal question to answer so publicly, how much do you believe? Because I've found your statements recently as regards to siddhis and now rainbow body slightly surprising. I mean, a yellow scroll materialized into Rinpoche's hand from his dream when he was young, if that's possible (and I do take it as completely true, I simply cannot imagine Rinpoche as someone who would embelish or flat out lie about something like that) why wouldn't all of the rest be possible?

[Guty]

I see white flying unicorns too, all the time around myself in my enlightened visions, but they also do not belong to your current experience of reality. I doubt they would fly over to you just to inroduce themselves. No pun intended dear friend. Unless there is a documented observation that holds water, you believe in flying unicorns. It has nothing to do with capacity for understanding the nature of reality. Do not delude yourself, get back to earth.

I have a picture of the one left by the master from Holland. But even if I were to post it you would say this is fake. So unless such a being reveals himself to you and demonstrates this out of compassion there is no way you will believe this is a possibility. And if you were to witness such a thing in your current condition you would probably have a mental breakdown and go insane.

Yes, I swear, the picture that you have is a fake. Having seen dozens of such photos and having been through this gullible period myself in the past and having already fully recovered, I can with all seriousness say that unicorns are more real. And if someone shows me what you believe would make me insane before going insane I would make sure that he was not Derren Brown and I wasn't higly suggestible person and that my perception is right. And had he really demonstrated the act of power such as legendary mahasiddhas allegedly did, I would definitely like to hear this person's explanations on the nature of reality and do the background check on his credibility and perhaps exclude all possibilities that this person is not a village escamoteur. Personally I have no problem with believeing in whatsoever, I can go back and forth through the entire panopticon of possibilities and manifestations, it only takes... no effort. But why would I? The world of physical senses is even bigger miracle itself and it has all the potentiality manifested right in its present form, without me necessarily changing my view about what is seen or perceived. Persons who need to provide you with photos of footprints in granite, probably need medications and you need abstinence from meeting them. And of course, you should exclude the possibility that the granite stone is not made of concrete or that chisels and lot of sanding were not involved if it is indeed a hard rock.

[Guty]

Pero,
great masters often use tricks and neurolinguistic programming. IMHO even mahasiddhas worked with NLP a lot, cause it is more economic from energy perspective. From certain perspective, deception that is aimed at ultimately changing the perception from gross materialistic to subtle spiritual, may and often do involve such lies. The only difference is, that the intention of the liar is that he deceives from a selfish need, but siddhas and enlightened prsons use it as an inpersonal tool for changing perception and induce different conditions in their disciples. There is no personal agenda behind the enlightened person't activity.

[Pero]

Pero,
great masters often use tricks and neurolinguistic programming. IMHO even mahasiddhas worked with NLP a lot, cause it is more economic from energy perspective. From certain perspective, deception that is aimed at ultimately changing the perception from gross materialistic to subtle spiritual, may and often do involve such lies. The only difference is, that the intention of the liar is that he deceives from a selfish need, but siddhas and enlightened prsons use it as an inpersonal tool for changing perception and induce different conditions in their disciples. There is no personal agenda behind the enlightened person't activity.

Sure I can buy that some could use such things as skillful means. But I don't think Norbu Rinpoche makes up stories.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

From certain perspective, deception that is aimed at ultimately changing the perception from gross materialistic to subtle spiritual, may and often do involve such lies.

Maybe so, maybe not. 100 years ago man walking on the moon was a much much more preposterous idea.

As Shakespeare said,

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

I do not believe in space aliens, but I could be wrong about that.
I advise others that do not believe in mahasiddhas to make the same concession.

[Guty]

Well, that's exactly the subtle point.. there is no human conscience anymore and things do happen. It really depends on the perspective and one's karmic vision.

[Pero]

Well, that's exactly the subtle point.. there is no human conscience anymore

What?