The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:55 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:I never claimed reality existed, therefore I am free of the fault of claiming it does not exist.
What on earth are you talking about? Just by sharing information and by posting here, you are making a claim that indeed at some level reality exists.
That's one of the silliest things you have ever said. It is like one illusory guy telling another illusory that because the second guy can respond to the first guy, the second is claiming the illusion is real.

M

Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:56 pm

Andrew108 wrote:I don't know if he is a nihilist and I couldn't care either way. I think he has more serious things to worry about.

You worry about your business, and I will worry about mine. In the meantime, since you obviously cannot address my citations and reasoning, be silent.

Andrew108
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Andrew108 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:I don't know if he is a nihilist and I couldn't care either way. I think he has more serious things to worry about.

You worry about your business, and I will worry about mine. In the meantime, since you obviously cannot address my citations and reasoning, be silent.
That's what I mean by having more serious things to worry about.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

smcj
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by smcj » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:06 pm

Andrew108 wrote:I don't know if he is a nihilist and I couldn't care either way. I think he has more serious things to worry about.
Your posts read as if you think he is denying the existence of the here and now of everyday reality. That's nihilism.

However I think he will freely admit to being stubborn and opinionated. Combined with his scholarship that's what makes this place tick. Otherwise it would be :zzz:
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Sherab
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Sherab » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:45 am

Malcolm wrote:The external mountain is an entity that is capable of appearing because of the force of traces of the minds of all sentient beings. Shabkar uses the example of the woman who meditated upon herself as a tiger for a year, and frightened a village into slaying her because they perceived her as a tiger and not a human woman.
Could you explain the process with which the "force of traces of the minds of all sentient beings" cause the external mountain? In other words, how does something mental produce something physical.

The example used by Shabkar does not explain this process as far as I can see. It explained how the meditating woman appeared as a tiger but does not explain how other tigers appear as tigers to the people of the village. The woman could have meditated upon herself as a mountain and would appear as a mountain to the village people but that would not explain how other mountains appear as mountains to the village people.

Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:59 am

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The external mountain is an entity that is capable of appearing because of the force of traces of the minds of all sentient beings. Shabkar uses the example of the woman who meditated upon herself as a tiger for a year, and frightened a village into slaying her because they perceived her as a tiger and not a human woman.
Could you explain the process with which the "force of traces of the minds of all sentient beings" cause the external mountain? In other words, how does something mental produce something physical.

The example used by Shabkar does not explain this process as far as I can see. It explained how the meditating woman appeared as a tiger but does not explain how other tigers appear as tigers to the people of the village. The woman could have meditated upon herself as a mountain and would appear as a mountain to the village people but that would not explain how other mountains appear as mountains to the village people.
Shabkar is basically claiming that the deluded perceptions of living beings are sufficient to cause similar appearances to other living beings of the same class.

pensum
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by pensum » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:07 am

Malcolm wrote:The external mountain is an entity that is capable of appearing because of the force of traces of the minds of all sentient beings. Shabkar uses the example of the woman who meditated upon herself as a tiger for a year, and frightened a village into slaying her because they perceived her as a tiger and not a human woman.
Isn't it far more likely that the woman didn't appear as a tiger to anybody, but she had simply deluded herself into believing herself to be a tiger, then in her madness acted in such an extremely threatening manner, attacking the villagers biting and scratching them so violently that they killed her out of self-defense?

krodha
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by krodha » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:15 am

When Devaputra asked Śākyamuni, "Who made Mt. Meru, the sun and moon?," the Buddha said:

"In answer to that, surely no creator exists other than the karmic potentialities and habitual patterns and conditioning of our thought processes. These define and label appearances, reifying and objectifying them, forming them accordingly. All things are created by our own minds."

Again, Devaputra asked the Buddha, "Our habitual thought patterns and conditioning may inform the nature of appearances, but from whence comes the solidity and density of Mt. Meru, the sun, the moon and so on?" And the Buddha replied:

"In Benares there once lived an old woman who visualized herself as a tiger and transformed her human body into the body of a tiger, and the people of Benares, having set eyes upon her, fled, and the city was deserted. If in a very short time an old woman can effect such a transformation by visualization, is it not indeed probable that appearances have been created in the same way, when the mind has been conditioned by karmic propensities instilled since beginningless time?"

bob
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by bob » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:24 am

Malcolm wrote:Shabkar is basically claiming that the deluded perceptions of living beings are sufficient to cause similar appearances to other living beings of the same class.
The beings who have created the illusion of the mountains are not of the same class as the beings who are perceiving the illusion as mountains.

:anjali:

Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:34 am

bob wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Shabkar is basically claiming that the deluded perceptions of living beings are sufficient to cause similar appearances to other living beings of the same class.
The beings who have created the illusion of the mountains are not of the same class as the beings who are perceiving the illusion as mountains.

:anjali:
Actually, they are.

bob
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by bob » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:42 am

Malcolm wrote:
bob wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Shabkar is basically claiming that the deluded perceptions of living beings are sufficient to cause similar appearances to other living beings of the same class.
The beings who have created the illusion of the mountains are not of the same class as the beings who are perceiving the illusion as mountains.

:anjali:
Actually, they are.

As much as I respect your acumen, I would offer as a rough analogy that the beings who build the zoo are not of the same class as the beings who occupy the cages.

So too with the physical 3-D realm we take to be "the world", which is a stage with props provided for the training and edifying adventures of beings in a less advanced class by beings in a far more advanced class.

Of course, if we were to consider the matter from the absolute point of view, there are no beings, but that is skipping ahead a bit.

:namaste:

Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:45 am

bob wrote:

As much as I respect your acumen, I would offer as a rough analogy that the beings who build the zoo are not of the same class as the beings who occupy the cages.

So too with the physical 3-D realm we take to be "the world", which is a stage with props provided for the training and edifying adventures of beings in a less advanced class by beings in a far more advanced class.

Of course, if we were to consider the matter from the absolute point of view, there are no beings, but that is skipping ahead a bit.

:namaste:
We build our own cage together, no one does it for us.

bob
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by bob » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:01 am

Malcolm wrote:
bob wrote:

As much as I respect your acumen, I would offer as a rough analogy that the beings who build the zoo are not of the same class as the beings who occupy the cages.

So too with the physical 3-D realm we take to be "the world", which is a stage with props provided for the training and edifying adventures of beings in a less advanced class by beings in a far more advanced class.

Of course, if we were to consider the matter from the absolute point of view, there are no beings, but that is skipping ahead a bit.

:namaste:
We build our own cage together, no one does it for us.
Yes, I understand that line of thinking, and at one time would have agreed. In a certain limited sense, there is even some truth to that, especially in regard to karma. We are all creators and creatures of each other, causing and bearing each other's burden within the sphere of our relations and so forth.

However, what I am referring to is the actual mechanics of this current manifestation which we are enjoying, known generally as "this world", which we as human beings have little hand in creating or maintaining (but are doing a pretty good job nevertheless of spoiling). We did not make the mountains, the rivers, or the tigers and elephants, or even our own bodies (which we think of as our own, at least).

In that sense, it is the work of another class of beings, just as is the sun, the moon, and the planets. Nor am I referring to some God-creator (although to most of us, these beings would appear god-like). In other words, there is a hierarchy, or ascending and descending classes of beings.

Now, I realize this comment might not align with the popular understanding of Buddhism, but nevertheless, it is the case. I am not trying to convince anyone of this, btw, but felt moved to insert it as a consideration. There is more to this world than meets the eye, or necessarily tallies with human philosophies or current scientific understanding.

:anjali:

Sherlock
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Sherlock » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:08 am

The notion of creators of the universe goes against even the Pali Suttas. You are simply a Hindu.

"Higher" beings in Buddhism are just as much samsaric beings as humans are.

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Sherab
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Sherab » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:11 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The external mountain is an entity that is capable of appearing because of the force of traces of the minds of all sentient beings. Shabkar uses the example of the woman who meditated upon herself as a tiger for a year, and frightened a village into slaying her because they perceived her as a tiger and not a human woman.
Could you explain the process with which the "force of traces of the minds of all sentient beings" cause the external mountain? In other words, how does something mental produce something physical.

The example used by Shabkar does not explain this process as far as I can see. It explained how the meditating woman appeared as a tiger but does not explain how other tigers appear as tigers to the people of the village. The woman could have meditated upon herself as a mountain and would appear as a mountain to the village people but that would not explain how other mountains appear as mountains to the village people.
Shabkar is basically claiming that the deluded perceptions of living beings are sufficient to cause similar appearances to other living beings of the same class.
How is this different from cittamitra since it is the force of traces of the minds of all sentient beings that created the external mountain (physical) and created the external meditating woman (physical and mental) who then cause the village people to see her as an external tiger (physical and mental)?

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Sherab
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Sherab » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:15 am

Malcolm wrote:
bob wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Shabkar is basically claiming that the deluded perceptions of living beings are sufficient to cause similar appearances to other living beings of the same class.
The beings who have created the illusion of the mountains are not of the same class as the beings who are perceiving the illusion as mountains.

:anjali:
Actually, they are.
Seems very cittamitra to me.

bob
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by bob » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:19 am

Sherlock wrote:"Higher" beings in Buddhism are just as much samsaric beings as humans are.
Even in Buddhism, you have different classes of beings. I said nothing about samsara, I simply pointed out that there are in fact different classes of beings involved, in response to Shakbar's assertion.

:namaste:

Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:22 am

Sherab wrote: Seems very cittamitra to me.
Yogacara Madhyamaka, actually, ala Shantaraksita.

smcj
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by smcj » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:23 am

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
bob wrote: The beings who have created the illusion of the mountains are not of the same class as the beings who are perceiving the illusion as mountains.
Actually, they are.
Seems very cittamitra to me.
Uh-oh. Here we go again!
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Sherlock
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Sherlock » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:30 am

The whole idea that the are other beings who create samsara but are not part of it is counter to Buddhadharma.

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