Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28278
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:22 pm

heart wrote:
Sherlock wrote:You can read his book, large portions are available on Google books. But basically he didn't accept the idea of termas at all.

Sarah Harding compiles some of the criticisms of Aris' approach even from a scholarly perspective.
I read that book years ago, then burnt it. He seems to have beef with Pema Lingpa that goes far beyond any rationale explanation.

/magnus
Why? It is an interesting book. Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pensum
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:12 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by pensum » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:29 pm

heart wrote:A burnt seed can never be the cause of any fruit, so whatever we think about this subject if we don't believe these teachings comes from "someones" realization then we have broken samaya and left the sphere of vajrayana altogether. That said I do like you a lot pensum and even if I never met Malcolm I do enjoy his brilliant intellect and his flair for drama.

/magnus
On the vital point we are in agreement Magnus, and that's all that matters, all the rest including how one personally defines an "author" of a text, is just personal karma. As for myself, my main concern is how do we give a good account of our tradition within a contemporary highly heterogenous culture, where Buddhists of all ilks, Christians from Catholic to Seventh-Day Adventist, Muslims whether Shiite, Sunni or Sufi, First Peoples, Aborigines, Africans, atheists, pagans, etc. etc. freely intermingle. Considering the debates and disagreements that were and still are so common in even a highly homogenous Buddhist culture like Tibet, it seems imperative to dig down and find what is essential and can be beneficial without recourse to proclamations of faith. If we are to save all beings then it can only be done by respecting one another's beliefs, seeking together the root of suffering which is common to all no matter their race or creed, and respecting the other enough to allow them the space and freedom to sever the root of their own accord. The fact is that everyone can discover the nature of their own mind, it's readily accessible to all and at all times. And that knowledge, that intuition, insight or whatever you want to call the state of rigpa is unassailable by any belief or argument, nor reliant upon any history or claim. True confidence only arises from experiencing it for oneself. It remains unsullied no matter how poorly one might express its ineffability, nor is it improved in any way by being expressed eloquently or logically. It is from that small insight, freely available to all regardless, that all the elaborations and complexities arise and it is into that same small insight that they all collapse. About this there can be no doubt, for it is the most intimate knowledge, the very essence of all experience and the only thing that is truly one's own.
Last edited by pensum on Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pensum
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:12 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by pensum » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
In this specific case, wouldn't Jews burning books because they were written by Nazis be the more accurate analogy? :thinking:

Sherlock
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Sherlock » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:35 pm

pensum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
In this specific case, wouldn't Jews burning books because they were written by Nazis be the more accurate analogy? :thinking:
What's the difference? They are both burning books because they don't like the authors.

(Not comparing magnus to either Jews or Nazis)

But yeah, I think that response sounds a bit extreme, although I certainly don't agree with Aris.

pensum
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:12 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by pensum » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:46 pm

Sherlock wrote:
pensum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
In this specific case, wouldn't Jews burning books because they were written by Nazis be the more accurate analogy? :thinking:
What's the difference? They are both burning books because they don't like the authors.

(Not comparing magnus to either Jews or Nazis)

But yeah, I think that response sounds a bit extreme, although I certainly don't agree with Aris.
I was just thinking that in this case it is the persecuted that is doing the book burning, that's all.

(and personally i am looking forward to reading Aris's book. i usually learn the most from reading ideas that i don't 100% agree with as they sharpen my critical faculties and having my own beliefs, assumptions and understanding challenged only further clarifies the essential for me. Davidson's two books are a good example, for where he may stray or overreach with his argument, there is much there which is worth consideration and beneficial to know. )

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
Godwin's law strikes again!
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

User avatar
Fa Dao
Posts: 848
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Fa Dao » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:17 pm

Maybe this guy Aris is one of those who in the past wrote against the terma tradition in Tibet? And maybe when he was dying he was thinking "those damn terma people, heretics, scammers" and maybe he was/is this Aris guy now? What a long strange trip its been eh?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Sherlock
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Sherlock » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:25 pm

I think he was mainly Theravadin, at least later in his life when he wrote that book.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:18 am

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: A burnt seed can never be the cause of any fruit, so whatever we think about this subject if we don't believe these teachings comes from "someones" realization then we have broken samaya and left the sphere of vajrayana altogether. That said I do like you a lot pensum and even if I never met Malcolm I do enjoy his brilliant intellect and his flair for drama.
There is no samaya that says we must believe this or that text is a product of someone's realization, even a tantra or a sutra.

Why do you think there was and is controversy around things like Shugden, Termas etc.? Certainly the Shugden folks believe their protector comes from someone's realization. The people who disbelieve in Shugden think the person who tells them Shugden is a mistaken practice is realized.

In general the recommended approach is that if you are not sure of a teaching, don't criticize it because you might unwittingly criticize and authentic teaching of the Buddhas.

However, origin stories are not Dharma. Disbelieving the claim that some text was written by Padmasambhava or Vimalamitra, then hidden and then dug up 800 years later in some backwater in Kham where it is unlikely Padmasambhava ever set foot hardly constitutes breaking "samaya". Disbelieving that Buddha taught Guhyasamaja to Indrabhuti I hardly constitutes breaking samaya. Disbelieving that the eighteen tantras fell on the roof of King Za's house and then he had to recruit Kukuraja to understand them is hardly breaking samaya.

"Breaking samaya" means trying to turn people against the Dharma. No one is doing that here.
Calling the 17 Tantras a scam is really close to turning people against the Dharma. Because scams are not Dharma, pretty simple.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:40 am

Fa Dao wrote:Maybe this guy Aris is one of those who in the past wrote against the terma tradition in Tibet? And maybe when he was dying he was thinking "those damn terma people, heretics, scammers" and maybe he was/is this Aris guy now? What a long strange trip its been eh?
Yes, that is it. The whole book smells like a personal vendetta against Pema LIngpa in particular and Vajrayana in general. It is not science.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:43 am

Malcolm wrote:
Why? It is an interesting book. Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
Should I have thrown it in the garbage instead, is that more respectful? Anyway you just lost the argument.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28278
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:52 am

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Why? It is an interesting book. Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
Should I have thrown it in the garbage instead, is that more respectful? Anyway you just lost the argument.

/magnus

No magnus, you should have given it to a library. Burnng books is like censoring views, we don't encouragre that in a free society.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

dzoki
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by dzoki » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Why? It is an interesting book. Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
Should I have thrown it in the garbage instead, is that more respectful? Anyway you just lost the argument.

/magnus

No magnus, you should have given it to a library. Burnng books is like censoring views, we don't encouragre that in a free society.
Hey, he bought a book, in a free society he can do whatever he wants with it.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28278
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:19 pm

dzoki wrote: Hey, he bought a book, in a free society he can do whatever he wants with it.
It's a fundamentalist act, that is the point. Sure, he can do what he likes, just like I can fart in a car full of people, but that does not mean that everyone will like it.

:soapbox:

We have huge problems with fundamentalism in the world today, Christian fundamentalism, Muslim Fundamentalism, etc. Let's not add to it with Buddhist fundamentalism.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Sönam » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:48 pm

dzoki wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Should I have thrown it in the garbage instead, is that more respectful? Anyway you just lost the argument.

/magnus

No magnus, you should have given it to a library. Burnng books is like censoring views, we don't encouragre that in a free society.
Hey, he bought a book, in a free society he can do whatever he wants with it.
You mistake free society and liberal one ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzoki wrote: Hey, he bought a book, in a free society he can do whatever he wants with it.
It's a fundamentalist act, that is the point. Sure, he can do what he likes, just like I can fart in a car full of people, but that does not mean that everyone will like it.

:soapbox:

We have huge problems with fundamentalism in the world today, Christian fundamentalism, Muslim Fundamentalism, etc. Let's not add to it with Buddhist fundamentalism.
Really Malcolm, now I am a fundamentalist? I burnt the book as this is what I been told is the best thing to do with Dharma articles like old sadhanas texts and so on. I showed Michael Aris book a lot more respect than he shoved Pema Lingpa and Tibetan Buddhism.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28278
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:50 pm

heart wrote: Calling the 17 Tantras a scam is really close to turning people against the Dharma. Because scams are not Dharma, pretty simple.
Did I call the 17 tantras a scam? No. I simple asserted that they were composed in the 11th century. Just like Kalacakra was composed in the 10th century, Hevajra and the Laghusamvara in the 9th, Guhyasamaja in the 8th and so on.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: Calling the 17 Tantras a scam is really close to turning people against the Dharma. Because scams are not Dharma, pretty simple.
Did I call the 17 tantras a scam? No. I simple asserted that they were composed in the 11th century. Just like Kalacakra was composed in the 10th century, Hevajra and the Laghusamvara in the 9th, Guhyasamaja in the 8th and so on.
Inventing a lineage is a classic scam, no?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28278
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:07 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: Calling the 17 Tantras a scam is really close to turning people against the Dharma. Because scams are not Dharma, pretty simple.
Did I call the 17 tantras a scam? No. I simple asserted that they were composed in the 11th century. Just like Kalacakra was composed in the 10th century, Hevajra and the Laghusamvara in the 9th, Guhyasamaja in the 8th and so on.
Inventing a lineage is a classic scam, no?

/magnus

If you choose to see it that way. I don't. I see it very much along the same lines as placing the words of Mahāyāna sūtras in the mouth of the Buddha, when it is impossible that the historical Buddha even spoke one word of them, let alone all 108 volumes of them and more. I evaluate the texts on what they say, not on the basis of their supposed origins. I think it is a superior approach when a text is evaluated on its actual content rather than who supposedly spoke it.

Let me put it another way, when Amoghavajra [i.e. Shingon tradition] claims that Nāgārjuna took the tantras out of an iron tower in South India, I also do not believe that story. That does not mean I think that the practice of the Vajradhātu mandala is spurious or worthless.

Given the environment of the 11th century, if the authors of the 17 tantras came out and said "We wrote these books, and because we have realized the meaning contained therein, you should practice this" no one would have believed them.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:44 am

Malcolm wrote:
If you choose to see it that way. I don't. I see it very much along the same lines as placing the words of Mahāyāna sūtras in the mouth of the Buddha, when it is impossible that the historical Buddha even spoke one word of them, let alone all 108 volumes of them and more. I evaluate the texts on what they say, not on the basis of their supposed origins. I think it is a superior approach when a text is evaluated on its actual content rather than who supposedly spoke it.

Let me put it another way, when Amoghavajra [i.e. Shingon tradition] claims that Nāgārjuna took the tantras out of an iron tower in South India, I also do not believe that story. That does not mean I think that the practice of the Vajradhātu mandala is spurious or worthless.

Given the environment of the 11th century, if the authors of the 17 tantras came out and said "We wrote these books, and because we have realized the meaning contained therein, you should practice this" no one would have believed them.
We are still waiting for your translation of the 17 Tantras in order to evaluate its actual content. But in my opinion if you wanted to make a believable story about the origin of a text you wrote you would have traveled to India and made sanskrit copies of them. The lineage that Zhangton Tashi Dorje provide is laughable in comparison the Sarma lineages. No wonder so relatively few people believed in them at the time. This is what don't make sense.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: lama tsewang, weitsicht and 61 guests