Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

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smcj
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by smcj » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:53 pm

I am personally of the opinion that Dzogchen has been over-marketed here in the West. I do not doubt the validity of anything about it, just that it has pandered to many of our cultural preconditions and thus has gotten an undue amount of attention. The reason there are 9 yanas is because one size does not fit all. The best medicine is the one that cures the sickness you have got, not the most powerful or famous medicine.

Note: I did say this was only my opinion.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Malcolm
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:13 pm

smcj wrote:I am personally of the opinion that Dzogchen has been over-marketed here in the West.
That's true. And even worse it is marketed as just another meditation technique. Just look at the latest cover of Shambhala Sun:

Image
I do not doubt the validity of anything about it, just that it has pandered to many of our cultural preconditions and thus has gotten an undue amount of attention.
A lot of people use Dzogchen to sell their teachings, without really teaching Dzogchen at all.

The reason there are 9 yanas is because one size does not fit all. The best medicine is the one that cures the sickness you have got, not the most powerful or famous medicine.
In this case, the best Dharma for you is the one you want to practice. Dzoghen is a high teaching. That does not mean it is not a path. It is a path. And it can be practiced by any interested person.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by kirtu » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote: It is more easy to become an Arhat than attain rainbow body.
This is really not the case. Who ever taught you this?
It is the case that for most people it is easier to attain Arhatship than to attain rainbow body at death (Great Transference that everyone nearby can see).

Most people do not practice. If they did serious renunciation or purification practice it would be rare. Most people do not meditate. Out of people who do meditate most people are not stable. Most people are overwhelmed by their negativities at least from time to time. Most people don't abide in the natural state. Of those who do, there is a chance. But most of them need long, closed retreat and most people can't or don't do that.
There are many factors involved in whether a practitioner attains the rainbow body.


And fewer factors are involved in the complete defeat of emotional obscurations.

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by TaTa » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:50 pm

Clearly there are a lot of people who think that practice dzogchen but they dont.

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Stewart » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:I am personally of the opinion that Dzogchen has been over-marketed here in the West.
That's true. And even worse it is marketed as just another meditation technique. Just look at the latest cover of Shambhala Sun:

Image
I do not doubt the validity of anything about it, just that it has pandered to many of our cultural preconditions and thus has gotten an undue amount of attention.
A lot of people use Dzogchen to sell their teachings, without really teaching Dzogchen at all.

The reason there are 9 yanas is because one size does not fit all. The best medicine is the one that cures the sickness you have got, not the most powerful or famous medicine.
In this case, the best Dharma for you is the one you want to practice. Dzoghen is a high teaching. That does not mean it is not a path. It is a path. And it can be practiced by any interested person.
I really don't like Shambhala Sun, but I have to say one of the articles in this issue was written by one of my own masters, Tsoknyi Rinpoche. You can view it here;

http://www.tsoknyirinpoche.org/8631/dzo ... bhala-sun/

I think its quite a nice introduction. For me, and many others, he's the real deal Dzogchen-wise. He gets straight to the pith instructions in plain language, without making people jump through hoops for little real Dzogchen instruction in the end. Also he has a fine family lineage and pedigree.

How Shambhala markets it's contributors articles is another story. Not my cup of tea.
s.

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:26 am

kirtu wrote:
It is the case that for most people it is easier to attain Arhatship
This just really is not the case, kirt. But far be it from me to sway you from your superior knowledge.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by ZOOM » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:32 pm

I never heard that even one of all the Westerner Dzogchen practitioners (no matter if they are in an official lineage, have an official teacher, got direct "empowernment" or instruction from the teacher) ever attained rainbow body.
This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
In case that I am misinformed, I would be happy if someone could point out some rainbow body success stories of Westerner students to me!
Thank you very much!

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:36 pm

ZOOM wrote:I never heard that even one of all the Westerner Dzogchen practitioners (no matter if they are in an official lineage, have an official teacher, got direct "empowernment" or instruction from the teacher) ever attained rainbow body.
This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
In case that I am misinformed, I would be happy if someone could point out some rainbow body success stories of Westerner students to me!
Thank you very much!
Yup, I guess Dzogchen just doesn't work for westerners. Better move along, nothing to see here.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Dragon » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:55 pm

Deja vu all over again... :jumping:

I think I liked Dzogchen/Buddhism better when I wasn't reading and participating in these message boards.

I think I'll go back to that for now. :twothumbsup:

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by smcj » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:22 pm

This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
I disagree that the rainbow body phenomena is the the only validation to the mastery of Dzogchen realization, or any style/level of enlightenment.

furthermore, people making progress on the Path, evolving and maturing in a Dharma direction, is validation enough for me of the efficacy of the Path. The lower yanas are still Dharma. You guys make too much of a big thing about Dzogchen. It reminds me of the people that base their financial planning on winning the lottery. Better to get a job. You can still buy lottery tickets, just have a Plan B that is more assured to work.
Last edited by smcj on Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by heart » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:10 pm

smcj wrote:
This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
I disagree that the rainbow body phenomena is the the only validation to the mastery of Dzogchen realization, or any style/level of enlightenment.
I agree, it is a big mistake to think that masters that don't manifest a rainbow body are not realized.

/magnus
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by smcj » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:29 pm

smcj wrote:
This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
I disagree that the rainbow body phenomena is the the only validation to the mastery of Dzogchen realization, or any style/level of enlightenment for that matter.

Furthermore, people making progress on the Path, evolving and maturing in a Dharma direction, is validation enough for me of the efficacy of the Path. The lower yanas are still Dharma. You guys make too much of a big thing about Dzogchen. It reminds me of the people that base their financial planning on winning the lottery. Better to get a job, save and invest your earnings (dedicate the merit). You can still buy lottery tickets if you like, there's no reason not to. Just have a Plan B that is more assured to work at the same time. Plus getting in closer proximity to the prize through the lower yanas may increase your chances of getting a winning ticket...

Just saying'...
Last edited by smcj on Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:34 pm

smcj wrote:You guys make too much of a big thing about Dzogchen.
No we don't. Dzogchen is our path. It is not yours, and that's ok.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Norwegian » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:37 pm

smcj wrote:
smcj wrote:
This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
I disagree that the rainbow body phenomena is the the only validation to the mastery of Dzogchen realization, or any style/level of enlightenment for that matter.

Furthermore, people making progress on the Path, evolving and maturing in a Dharma direction, is validation enough for me of the efficacy of the Path. The lower yanas are still Dharma. You guys make too much of a big thing about Dzogchen. It reminds me of the people that base their financial planning on winning the lottery. Better to get a job, save and invest your earnings (dedicate the merit). You can still buy lottery tickets if you like, there's no reason not to. Just have a Plan B that is more assured to work at the same time.
Dzogchen is not a "lottery ticket". Dzogchen is a totally complete path from A to Z and it is not lacking a single thing (including dedication of merit), so you don't need to be worried about Dzogchen practicioners. Especially when you so often comment that you know very little about Dzogchen and also don't practice Dzogchen yourself.

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by smcj » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
You guys make too much of a big thing about Dzogchen.
Dzogchen is our path. It is not yours, and that's ok.
Malcolm wrote:
Zoom wrote:This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
Yup, I guess Dzogchen just doesn't work for westerners. Better move along, nothing to see here.
I think my response to Zoom was better than yours. And I would wager that it would meet the approval of most of your own teachers. The language may be overly emphatic, but the perspective is pretty standard.

You are welcome to try a revised response to Zoom again.
Last edited by smcj on Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:45 pm

smcj wrote: I think my response to Zoom was better than yours. You are welcome to try it again.
Are you high? :?
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by smcj » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote: I think my response to Zoom was better than yours. You are welcome to try it again.
Are you high? :?
No, Gelug/Kagyu.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:52 pm

smcj wrote: I think my response to Zoom was better than yours.
I was being sarcastic because his comment was not serious. In fact, none of his comments have been serious.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:53 pm

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote: I think my response to Zoom was better than yours. You are welcome to try it again.
Are you high? :?
No, Gelug/Kagyu.
Right, and so your interest in the Dzogchen forum is?
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:12 pm

Malcolm has a point smcj, this is the Dzogchen sub forum and as such one must take into account the rule in the Moderation changes / modifications thread:
2. People are free to question the teachings and traditional interpretations in Open Dharma subforum as has mostly been happening. Questions about a practice, a teaching or belief are appropriate in the specific subforum where the practice belongs, but criticisms belong in Open Dharma only and should be done sensitively, where possible with reference to the appropriate teachings. For example, do not challenge the core Dharma concepts and principles of Pure Land Buddhism in the Pure Land subforum and the same goes with the other specific traditions as well.
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