Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation basics

Ervin
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Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation basics

Post by Ervin » Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:24 pm

I would greatly appreciate if someone was to explain to me a bit about basics dzogchen meditation. What I would really like to know for instance is do you have to keep your back straight and unsupported or you can sit and rest your back? Also what's the importance of breathing meditation? What I mean is that, is contemplation meditation all you have to do?

Thanks

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heart
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by heart » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:56 pm

Ervin wrote:I would greatly appreciate if someone was to explain to me a bit about basics dzogchen meditation. What I would really like to know for instance is do you have to keep your back straight and unsupported or you can sit and rest your back? Also what's the importance of breathing meditation? What I mean is that, is contemplation meditation all you have to do?

Thanks
There are many teachings on postures, breathing and mind in Dzogchen as well as many different preliminaries and so on. But you really need a teacher in Dzogchen or else these methods will not work. It is a really a quite annoying tradition in this sense.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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lorem
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by lorem » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:27 am

Image

Reading The Crystal and the Way of Light by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu really helped me see the bigger picture (as much as books go.) :heart:'s right on.
I should be meditating.

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lorem
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by lorem » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:29 am

I'm not a teacher and sometimes (prob. most) I write/reflect myself so--

Try the practices in You Are the Eyes of the World. I wouldn't try tögal positions w/out a mentor but keep spine straight. Machik Labdron said that any position was okay as long as the body is relaxed (arms & legs).

http://www.shambhala.com/you-are-the-ey ... world.html
I should be meditating.

oldbob
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by oldbob » Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:05 am

Hi Ervin,

:namaste:

If you are a member of the Dzogchen Community and fulfill the requirements of the restricted books:

http://www.shangshunginstitute.org/aust ... ion-detail" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=241" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

would be helpful. (I suspect they might sell it to you if you just contact them directly and explain that it is your intention to take the appropriate transmissions at your earliest convenience.)

Without the Direct Introduction from a qualified teacher, it is very rare to find someone who can enter Dzogchen mediation (integration with whatever arises or doesn't arise, 24/7) by themselves.

Keeping the back straight is always helpful to enter contemplation. In Dzogchen you work with circumstances, and so nothing is suggested, in an absolute sense, except the primary practice, Guru Yoga, non-dual awareness, 24/7.

So, working with circumstances, it is ok in Dzogchen contemplation to sit and support the back if that is helpful to you.

Observing the movement of the breath at the nostrils, or in the solar plexus, may be used by a Dzogchen practitioner to help enter contemplation, but is not generally taught as the entry method in Dzogchen.

The Dzogchen methods of concentration on an object, and concentration without an object, are specific to Dzogchen and should be learned from a qualified Dzogchen Master.

There are also many breathing methods taught within Dzogchen. It is suggested that you contact the Dzogchen Community or other valid source of valid teachings locally. There are Dzogchen centers in Australia,

http://www.dzogchen.org.au/index.php?page=melbourne" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

for example.

Hope this helps,

ob

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Lindama
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by Lindama » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:46 am

Ervin wrote:I would greatly appreciate if someone was to explain to me a bit about basics dzogchen meditation. What I would really like to know for instance is do you have to keep your back straight and unsupported or you can sit and rest your back? Also what's the importance of breathing meditation? What I mean is that, is contemplation meditation all you have to do?

Thanks
Ervin,
Dzogchen is not to be compared with other teachings, methods and postures. It is simple, very simple. Find out the diff between preliminary practice and dzogchen which transcends view and meditation.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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Jesse
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by Jesse » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:14 am

Lindama wrote:
Ervin wrote:I would greatly appreciate if someone was to explain to me a bit about basics dzogchen meditation. What I would really like to know for instance is do you have to keep your back straight and unsupported or you can sit and rest your back? Also what's the importance of breathing meditation? What I mean is that, is contemplation meditation all you have to do?

Thanks
Ervin,
Dzogchen is not to be compared with other teachings, methods and postures. It is simple, very simple. Find out the diff between preliminary practice and dzogchen which transcends view and meditation.
I can't speak totally to dzogchen but that statement feels wrong.

From whatI understand there isn't much difference between dzogchen and zen.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... udying.htm

This was taken from another thread:
By Shabkar Tsokdrug Rangdrol.

E-ma-ho!

Listen again, fortunate heart-children!
That which is widely renowned as mind, does anyone have it? No one has it!

What is it the source of? It is the source of samsara and nirvana and their myriad joys and sorrows.

What is it believed to be? There are many beliefs according to the various vehicles.

What is it called? It is named in countless different ways.


All ordinary people call it I.
Some non-Buddhists call it Self.
Shravakas call it "individual egolessness."
The Mind Only School label it Mind.
Some call it Prajnaparamita, [that is,] "transcendent knowledge."

Some label it Sugatagarbha, [that is,] Buddha-nature.
Some name it Mahamudra.
Some give it the name Madhyamika.
Some say "the single sphere."
Some name it Dharmadhatu, [that is,] realm of phenomena.
Some call it the name alaya, "ground of all."
Some call it "ordinary mind."

Despite the innumerable names that are tagged onto it,
Know that the real meaning is as follows:


Let your mind spontaneously relax and rest.
When left to itself, ordinary mind is fresh and naked.
If observed, it is a vivid clarity without anything to see,
A direct awareness, sharp and awake.
Possessing no existence, it is empty and pure,
A clear openness of non-dual luminosity and emptiness.

It is not permanent, since it does not exist at all.
It is not nothingness, since it is vividly clear and awake.
It is not oneness, since many things are cognised and known.
It is not plurality, since the many things known are inseparable in one taste.
It is not somewhere else; it is your own awareness itself.
The face of this Primordial Protector, dwelling in your heart,
Can be directly perceived in this very instant.
Never be separated from it, children of my heart!

If you want to find something greater than this in another place,
It’s like going off searching for footprints although the elephant is right there.
You may scan the entire three-thousand-fold universe,
But it is impossible that you will find more than the mere name of Buddha.
I copied this text because its probably the best, most insightful thing I've ever read.
“Freedom is secured not by the fulfilling of one's desires, but by the removal of desire” – Epictetus

ngodrup
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by ngodrup » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:19 am

Nobody will explain a bit about it. There is nothing to explain, that can be explained
in words on a screen or on a page. Only a qualified Dzogchen master can give you
the pointing out instruction, if you are a qualified student. If you can understand
the significance of what the direct introduction is, then you practice *that*, not
"meditation." So, although there are different approaches-- semde, longde, mengakde--
and different ways of entering the experience of practice, they all rely on the in-person
instruction.
Period.

Because otherwise, all you end up with is information *about* it at best, and misinformation
or misunderstanding *about* it at worst. But you don't get the direct experience itself.

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Jesse
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by Jesse » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:29 am

ngodrup wrote:Nobody will explain a bit about it. There is nothing to explain, that can be explained
in words on a screen or on a page. Only a qualified Dzogchen master can give you
the pointing out instruction, if you are a qualified student. If you can understand
the significance of what the direct introduction is, then you practice *that*, not
"meditation." So, although there are different approaches-- semde, longde, mengakde--
and different ways of entering the experience of practice, they all rely on the in-person
instruction.
Period.

Because otherwise, all you end up with is information *about* it at best, and misinformation
or misunderstanding *about* it at worst. But you don't get the direct experience itself.
If I could be so vain, or arrogant.. it is the spontaneous freedom that arises when the mind is fully engaged in the practice of zazen. I don't know the dzogchen equivalent, but I can't imagine they are much different. There is nothing to examine, nothing there at all, but still quite something, which is unspeakable because the moment the thought arises to speak about it, or think about it, it's gone.
“Freedom is secured not by the fulfilling of one's desires, but by the removal of desire” – Epictetus

ngodrup
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by ngodrup » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:10 am

As has been explained elsewhere, although there may be some parallels,
Dzogchen and Zen are in no way equivalent or comparable. Zen falls within
Sutrayana and relies on ordinary mind. And even that, as Dogen says, is a
wisdom that most "will never experience even in their dreams."

If one says they *cannot imagine* the two are different, then the speaker
demonstrates the limits of their concepts. Isn't it better to approach a lineage-
holder, than rely on their own concepts? Not knowing the terminology demonstrates
that you are not relying on a Dzogchen Llama. Since when has trying to figure it out
ever worked? If you could, wouldn't you be enlightened already-- eons ago? And if you are
a Buddha, then why are you in this realm, on the internet guessing at what it might be?

It is true that the actual reality is beyond all limits. It is true that what it is is non-dual.
it is also true that it is not an experience. But it is not enough to say these things, because
in Dzogchen does not rely on the ordinary mind. It relies on the Nature of Mind as pointed out
to a qualified student by a qualified Dzogchen Master.

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Jesse
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by Jesse » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:30 am

ngodrup wrote:As has been explained elsewhere, although there may be some parallels,
Dzogchen and Zen are in no way equivalent or comparable. Zen falls within
Sutrayana and relies on ordinary mind. And even that, as Dogen says, is a
wisdom that most "will never experience even in their dreams."

If one says they *cannot imagine* the two are different, then the speaker
demonstrates the limits of their concepts. Isn't it better to approach a lineage-
holder, than rely on their own concepts? Not knowing the terminology demonstrates
that you are not relying on a Dzogchen Llama. Since when has trying to figure it out
ever worked? If you could, wouldn't you be enlightened already-- eons ago? And if you are
a Buddha, then why are you in this realm, on the internet guessing at what it might be?

It is true that the actual reality is beyond all limits. It is true that what it is is non-dual.
it is also true that it is not an experience. But it is not enough to say these things, because
in Dzogchen does not rely on the ordinary mind. It relies on the Nature of Mind as pointed out
to a qualified student by a qualified Dzogchen Master.
They are both simply rafts that lead to an understanding of Sunyata.

:popcorn:
“Freedom is secured not by the fulfilling of one's desires, but by the removal of desire” – Epictetus

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Jesse
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by Jesse » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:41 am

As for the original poster, here is a great book:

http://www.amazon.com/Stilling-Mind-Sha ... an+wallace" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Freedom is secured not by the fulfilling of one's desires, but by the removal of desire” – Epictetus

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heart
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by heart » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:43 am

Jesse wrote:
ngodrup wrote:As has been explained elsewhere, although there may be some parallels,
Dzogchen and Zen are in no way equivalent or comparable. Zen falls within
Sutrayana and relies on ordinary mind. And even that, as Dogen says, is a
wisdom that most "will never experience even in their dreams."

If one says they *cannot imagine* the two are different, then the speaker
demonstrates the limits of their concepts. Isn't it better to approach a lineage-
holder, than rely on their own concepts? Not knowing the terminology demonstrates
that you are not relying on a Dzogchen Llama. Since when has trying to figure it out
ever worked? If you could, wouldn't you be enlightened already-- eons ago? And if you are
a Buddha, then why are you in this realm, on the internet guessing at what it might be?

It is true that the actual reality is beyond all limits. It is true that what it is is non-dual.
it is also true that it is not an experience. But it is not enough to say these things, because
in Dzogchen does not rely on the ordinary mind. It relies on the Nature of Mind as pointed out
to a qualified student by a qualified Dzogchen Master.
They are both simply rafts that lead to an understanding of Sunyata.

:popcorn:
Understanding is actually not what Dzogchen is aiming for.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Jesse
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by Jesse » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:50 am

heart wrote:
Jesse wrote:
ngodrup wrote:As has been explained elsewhere, although there may be some parallels,
Dzogchen and Zen are in no way equivalent or comparable. Zen falls within
Sutrayana and relies on ordinary mind. And even that, as Dogen says, is a
wisdom that most "will never experience even in their dreams."

If one says they *cannot imagine* the two are different, then the speaker
demonstrates the limits of their concepts. Isn't it better to approach a lineage-
holder, than rely on their own concepts? Not knowing the terminology demonstrates
that you are not relying on a Dzogchen Llama. Since when has trying to figure it out
ever worked? If you could, wouldn't you be enlightened already-- eons ago? And if you are
a Buddha, then why are you in this realm, on the internet guessing at what it might be?

It is true that the actual reality is beyond all limits. It is true that what it is is non-dual.
it is also true that it is not an experience. But it is not enough to say these things, because
in Dzogchen does not rely on the ordinary mind. It relies on the Nature of Mind as pointed out
to a qualified student by a qualified Dzogchen Master.
They are both simply rafts that lead to an understanding of Sunyata.

:popcorn:
Understanding is actually not what Dzogchen is aiming for.

/magnus
We could argue the semantics and meanings of words all day. But I'm honestly not up for petty squabbles..
“Freedom is secured not by the fulfilling of one's desires, but by the removal of desire” – Epictetus

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heart
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by heart » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:11 am

Jesse wrote:
heart wrote:
Understanding is actually not what Dzogchen is aiming for.

/magnus
We could argue the semantics and meanings of words all day. But I'm honestly not up for petty squabbles..
It is an important point, not semantics. Mind understands, Dzogchen goes beyond mind and alas understanding. There is nothing wrong with understanding, it has value, however it is not the aim of Dzogchen.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Sönam
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by Sönam » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:36 am

If one realizes samsara without basis, it is the attainment of nirvana.
If one realizes nirvana as merely nominal, it is the attainment of the primordial sphere.
If you are free from efforts and transcend mind, it is the attainment of Dharmakaya.
If you are in contemplation without thoughts, it is the attainment of transcending the thoughts and expressions.
If there are no concepts and attachments, it is the attainment of the natural state.
If you transcend the mind and dissolve phenomena, it is the attainment of the ultimate meaning.
If you are free from "is" or "is not", it is the attainment of freedom from extremes.
If you cut off the root of fears and doubts, it is the attainment of enlightenment.
Dzogpa Chenpo teaching is the ultimate and true essence;
I taught it for the futur fortunate followers.
You and others fortunate followers,
Secure the eternal attainment in the state of dissolution.

- Longchen Rabjam - sDe-gSum sNying-Po'i Don-'Grel gNas-Lugs Rin-Po-Ch'e'i mDzod Ches-Bya-Ba'i 'Grel-Ba -
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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LastLegend
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by LastLegend » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:57 am

Still raft because you are not realized. You have not crossed to the shore. If everyone has crossed to the shore, there is no need for this so called meditation, Zen, Dzogchen, etc.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

ngodrup
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by ngodrup » Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:34 pm

Stilling the Mind, by Dudjom Lingpa, is indeed a great source!
And it will also require transmission from a lineage-holder of
the Dudjom Tersar in order for it to serve its function. Did
the translator himself, Allan Wallace, simply pull the text off
the shelf and start translating? No. Dr. Wallace spent years
studying this text under the guidance of none other than the
Tulku of the founder of the Palyul monastery, Gyatrul Rinpoche.
It, and the commentary, were for years reserved texts available
only to those who were present at the oral instructions. The Dudjom
Yangsi himself speaks of the power of this particular teaching, if
one has received it properly. I wholeheartedly recommend Dudjom
Tersar practices to anybody who has access to them, but please
receive them properly so that their meaning will penetrate your mind.

Thomas_Pynchon
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by Thomas_Pynchon » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:47 pm

Understanding is actually not what Dzogchen is aiming for.
"Love is the natural condition of all experience before thought has divided it into a multiplicity and diversity of objects, selves and others."
~ Rupert Spira

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Paul
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Re: Would someone explain a bit about dzogchen meditation ba

Post by Paul » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:53 pm

Jesse wrote: From whatI understand there isn't much difference between dzogchen and zen.
The difference is that Dzogchen has teachings on lhundrup, not just the empty nature of the mind. The empty aspect of the two teachings is very similar, though. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche covers it well in "Dzogchen and Zen".
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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