Awareness of awareness

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Paul
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Paul » Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:54 pm

rachmiel wrote:No one can ever be utterly certain that they are, or aren't, dreaming up this whole big beautiful heartbreaking show, right?
Dzogchen is a path of direct experience, not intellectual positions that can be argued and counter-argued about. This direct experience is what really counts.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Paul wrote:Dzogchen is a path of direct experience, not intellectual positions that can be argued and counter-argued about. This direct experience is what really counts.
Fair enough.

So the intellectual discussion in this thread is one reason why Dzogchen was kept a secret teaching for so long?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Paul
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Paul » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:23 pm

rachmiel wrote:
Paul wrote:Dzogchen is a path of direct experience, not intellectual positions that can be argued and counter-argued about. This direct experience is what really counts.
Fair enough.

So the intellectual discussion in this thread is one reason why Dzogchen was kept a secret teaching for so long?
Well one of the reasons it was kept so secret is that it is very easy to misunderstand. Someone can think they are practicing it but are just sat there thinking about the impressive words that are used in the teachings and so on. It's just an intellectual thing at that point, not a real experience.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:30 pm

Makes sense.
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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:23 pm

So here's what I learned from this thread:

Dzogchen "practice" consists of direct experience.

Thought is not part of direct experience. So any attempt to fathom*, via thought, the teachings of Dzogchen — such as "awareness of awareness" — is not only doomed to failure, it is not part of the fabric of Dzogchen to begin with.

* Including this one. :juggling:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:25 pm

Thanks everyone! :bow:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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conebeckham
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by conebeckham » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:20 pm

rachmiel wrote:So here's what I learned from this thread:

Dzogchen "practice" consists of direct experience.

Thought is not part of direct experience. So any attempt to fathom*, via thought, the teachings of Dzogchen — such as "awareness of awareness" — is not only doomed to failure, it is not part of the fabric of Dzogchen to begin with.

* Including this one. :juggling:
Having thoughts is definitely part of one's direct experience. But Dzogchen is not interested in the conceptual constructions of the mental consciousness--reasons, rationales, systems, etc. are "being carried away by conceptual mind." Not being carried away is, indeed, the crux of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen practice.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:40 pm

conebeckham wrote:
rachmiel wrote:So here's what I learned from this thread:

Dzogchen "practice" consists of direct experience.

Thought is not part of direct experience. So any attempt to fathom*, via thought, the teachings of Dzogchen — such as "awareness of awareness" — is not only doomed to failure, it is not part of the fabric of Dzogchen to begin with.

* Including this one. :juggling:
Having thoughts is definitely part of one's direct experience. But Dzogchen is not interested in the conceptual constructions of the mental consciousness--reasons, rationales, systems, etc. are "being carried away by conceptual mind." Not being carried away is, indeed, the crux of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen practice.
To see thoughts arise and fall is direct experience. To engage in thought, step out of the flow and into discursive thinking is not.

Better?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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conebeckham
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by conebeckham » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:48 pm

rachmiel wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
rachmiel wrote:So here's what I learned from this thread:

Dzogchen "practice" consists of direct experience.

Thought is not part of direct experience. So any attempt to fathom*, via thought, the teachings of Dzogchen — such as "awareness of awareness" — is not only doomed to failure, it is not part of the fabric of Dzogchen to begin with.

* Including this one. :juggling:
Having thoughts is definitely part of one's direct experience. But Dzogchen is not interested in the conceptual constructions of the mental consciousness--reasons, rationales, systems, etc. are "being carried away by conceptual mind." Not being carried away is, indeed, the crux of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen practice.
To see thoughts arise and fall is direct experience. To engage in thought, step out of the flow and into discursive thinking is not.

Better?
Sure. Actually, even discursive thinking is direct experience--but that's a tricky one. For beginners like me, seeing them arise and vanish is enough work.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:55 pm

conebeckham wrote:
rachmiel wrote:To see thoughts arise and fall is direct experience. To engage in thought, step out of the flow and into discursive thinking is not.

Better?
Sure. Actually, even discursive thinking is direct experience--but that's a tricky one. For beginners like me, seeing them arise and vanish is enough work.....
Is *everything* that one experiences ... direct experience?

If so, why bother cultivating a practice? You're already home, there's nowhere to go, no path required.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Karma Dorje » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:00 pm

rachmiel wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
rachmiel wrote:To see thoughts arise and fall is direct experience. To engage in thought, step out of the flow and into discursive thinking is not.

Better?
Sure. Actually, even discursive thinking is direct experience--but that's a tricky one. For beginners like me, seeing them arise and vanish is enough work.....
Is *everything* that one experiences ... direct experience?

If so, why bother cultivating a practice? You're already home, there's nowhere to go, no path required.
It's not direct experience that one needs, but understanding of one's experience. One is always experiencing, but confused. Wisdom is proper understanding.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Paul
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Paul » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:04 pm

rachmiel wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
rachmiel wrote:To see thoughts arise and fall is direct experience. To engage in thought, step out of the flow and into discursive thinking is not.

Better?
Sure. Actually, even discursive thinking is direct experience--but that's a tricky one. For beginners like me, seeing them arise and vanish is enough work.....
Is *everything* that one experiences ... direct experience?

If so, why bother cultivating a practice? You're already home, there's nowhere to go, no path required.
Depends if you are dragged around by your experience or not.

The notion of there being 'no practice' is another reason dzogchen was kept secret - it's again another easy to confuse point. Even Milarepa fell for that one before he met Marpa.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:07 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:It's not direct experience that one needs, but understanding of one's experience. One is always experiencing, but confused. Wisdom is proper understanding.
But isn't the *understanding* of direct experience a form of conceptual thinking? And isn't Dzogchen founded on direct experience, not conceptual thinking?
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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:11 pm

Paul wrote:
rachmiel wrote:If so, why bother cultivating a practice? You're already home, there's nowhere to go, no path required.
Depends if you are dragged around by your experience or not.
But isn't even "being dragged around by your experience" ultimately just another ... direct experience? In fact, can there even be "indirect" experience? Subjective experience is subjective experience, right?
The notion of there being 'no practice' is another reason dzogchen was kept secret - it's again another easy to confuse point. Even Milarepa fell for that one before he met Marpa.
Yes, as a Krishnamurti student (readings, not in person) I have been exposed repeatedly to the "no practice" can of worms. :tongue:
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Karma Dorje » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:15 pm

rachmiel wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:It's not direct experience that one needs, but understanding of one's experience. One is always experiencing, but confused. Wisdom is proper understanding.
But isn't the *understanding* of direct experience a form of conceptual thinking? And isn't Dzogchen founded on direct experience, not conceptual thinking?
No, understanding or prajna is not the same as conceptual thinking or vijnana. Not all forms of knowing are conceptual activities.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:19 pm

Thanks. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Paul
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Paul » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:23 pm

rachmiel wrote:
Paul wrote:
rachmiel wrote:If so, why bother cultivating a practice? You're already home, there's nowhere to go, no path required.
Depends if you are dragged around by your experience or not.
But isn't even "being dragged around by your experience" ultimately just another ... direct experience? In fact, can there even be "indirect" experience? Subjective experience is subjective experience, right?
Dzogchen isn't a nihilistic free for all - there is certainly a line between confused and not confused.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

hop.pala
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by hop.pala » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:35 pm

But this doesn't make sense to me. Pure awareness, as I understand it, sees (hears, observes, etc.) objects (gross and subtle) as they arise, without any interpretation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p6MlkxfaYI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All the same that you when hold your consciousness,are you what you are ,and not pure awareness."the pure awareness" understand nothing with 3 picture,but you have more million picture from this life.When can not hold the mindlevel of bodhicitta far away from that,then you approaching you will suppress that,and your consciousness as the Beavis and Butthead. :D

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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:15 am

Paul wrote:
rachmiel wrote:
Paul wrote:But isn't even "being dragged around by your experience" ultimately just another ... direct experience? In fact, can there even be "indirect" experience? Subjective experience is subjective experience, right?
Dzogchen isn't a nihilistic free for all - there is certainly a line between confused and not confused.
Where not confused is seeing things as Dzogchen sees them, and confused is not? :tongue:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Paul
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Paul » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:00 am

It's whether you are directly experiencing your true nature or not.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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