Renouncing Theravada

Jata Bharadvaja
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Renouncing Theravada

Post by Jata Bharadvaja » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:58 pm

Hello everybody, I've recently been at what I can only describe as a cross road really. I've slowly lost faith in the Theravada tradition, I've been seeing and reading about things such as monks owning pubs selling alcohol, doing fortune telling, magic tricks, barely meditating (if at all), getting into fist fights, doing sing song chanting etc. I've vaguely heard about things like this before but never really took them to heart, that is until recently. I've come to the conclusion that I do NOT want to ordain in such environments and so I've decided to renounce the "title" of Theravada and remain as an unoficial Anagarika until further notice. Let me give you a brief history of myself just for a reference point. I was introduced to Buddhism via watching interviews of the Dalai Lama (as I'm sure a lot of westerners were) I decided to "become a Buddhist" I then got involved in the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw (and I'm still a part of) and I've been meditating and studying for about a year and a half, give or take. What I have noticed is that this method of meditation does work but I feel as though a lot of it is tied to a declining Theravadin monastic system referring to the above incidents. I was told indirectly by my teacher that you shouldn't stick to labels such as Theravada, Mahayana etc. and that it's much more important to pick out specific monastic traditions and lineages rather than a broad generalization, he then went on to say that he knows of some Tibetan Buddhist lineages that practice very similar to the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw. Which is why I'm here asking this question, can anyone here point me in the direction of similar practices in the Vajrayana school? I don't know much about it other than they still go by the core teachings of the Buddha (I have the mantra Om mani pad me om tattooed on my arm, ironic no?) I still plan to follow the Pali texts and the like I just want to find a stable monastic community that is serious regarding practice and who knows maybe I'll find something that suits my needs elsewhere. P.s. I'm not trying to downplay the efforts of Theravadin Monks and lay people that are practicing I'm just not comfortable with the fact that MOST Theravadin monks do not practice strict Dhamma Vinaya (with the exception of Thai forest monks/ Burmese monks / and others scattered around) and I'm not renouncing Buddhism, I'm renouncing the title of Theravadin Buddhist... thanks for the help
Thus it was said, and in reference to this was it said...

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LastLegend
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by LastLegend » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:36 pm

There are skeletons everywhere whether it's Theravada Mahayana or Vajrayana my friend. You have to find a group that you are comfortable to work with.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

Lotus_Bitch
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Lotus_Bitch » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:34 pm

Tibetan Buddhist's largely ordain under the Mulasarvastivadan vinaya lineage, but you may encounter bhikshunis who have received full monastic ordination under the Dharmagupta vinaya. It's not quite clear from your inquiry, if you want to know which vinaya is most similar to the Theravadan, or what practice is most similar to Mahasi style shamatha-vipashyana. As to the latter, the most similar would be Sutra Mahamudra, but jhanas are not generally emphasized in Tibetan Buddhism; "access concentration" is sufficient enough to practice vipashyana in that tradition.
Many meditators know how to meditate,
But only a few know how to dismantle [mental clinging].
- Je Gyare

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Grigoris
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Grigoris » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:43 pm

Jata Bharadvaja wrote:Hello everybody, I've recently been at what I can only describe as a cross road really. I've slowly lost faith in the Theravada tradition, I've been seeing and reading about things such as monks owning pubs selling alcohol, doing fortune telling, magic tricks, barely meditating (if at all), getting into fist fights, doing sing song chanting etc.
Damn dude, if that's the reason you want to leave the Theravada tradition I predict that your stay with Vajarayana will be even briefer! :) Everything you just listed is part of our daily practice! :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

philji
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by philji » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:31 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Jata Bharadvaja wrote:Hello everybody, I've recently been at what I can only describe as a cross road really. I've slowly lost faith in the Theravada tradition, I've been seeing and reading about things such as monks owning pubs selling alcohol, doing fortune telling, magic tricks, barely meditating (if at all), getting into fist fights, doing sing song chanting etc.
Damn dude, if that's the reason you want to leave the Theravada tradition I predict that your stay with Vajarayana will be even briefer! :) Everything you just listed is part of our daily practice! :tongue:
Loving it :popcorn: :cheers:

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Mkoll
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Mkoll » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:18 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Jata Bharadvaja wrote:Hello everybody, I've recently been at what I can only describe as a cross road really. I've slowly lost faith in the Theravada tradition, I've been seeing and reading about things such as monks owning pubs selling alcohol, doing fortune telling, magic tricks, barely meditating (if at all), getting into fist fights, doing sing song chanting etc.
Damn dude, if that's the reason you want to leave the Theravada tradition I predict that your stay with Vajarayana will be even briefer! :) Everything you just listed is part of our daily practice! :tongue:
:rolling:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Malcolm
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:54 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Jata Bharadvaja wrote:Hello everybody, I've recently been at what I can only describe as a cross road really. I've slowly lost faith in the Theravada tradition, I've been seeing and reading about things such as monks owning pubs selling alcohol, doing fortune telling, magic tricks, barely meditating (if at all), getting into fist fights, doing sing song chanting etc.
Damn dude, if that's the reason you want to leave the Theravada tradition I predict that your stay with Vajarayana will be even briefer! :) Everything you just listed is part of our daily practice! :tongue:
Everything but the fist fights, this is Mahāyāna after all...
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Silent Bob
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Silent Bob » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:53 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Jata Bharadvaja wrote:Hello everybody, I've recently been at what I can only describe as a cross road really. I've slowly lost faith in the Theravada tradition, I've been seeing and reading about things such as monks owning pubs selling alcohol, doing fortune telling, magic tricks, barely meditating (if at all), getting into fist fights, doing sing song chanting etc.
Damn dude, if that's the reason you want to leave the Theravada tradition I predict that your stay with Vajarayana will be even briefer! :) Everything you just listed is part of our daily practice! :tongue:
:twothumbsup: :cheers:
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"

Jata Bharadvaja
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Jata Bharadvaja » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:31 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Jata Bharadvaja wrote:Hello everybody, I've recently been at what I can only describe as a cross road really. I've slowly lost faith in the Theravada tradition, I've been seeing and reading about things such as monks owning pubs selling alcohol, doing fortune telling, magic tricks, barely meditating (if at all), getting into fist fights, doing sing song chanting etc.
Damn dude, if that's the reason you want to leave the Theravada tradition I predict that your stay with Vajarayana will be even briefer! :) Everything you just listed is part of our daily practice! :tongue:
Am I missing something? Not to be rude excuse my ignorance but do you do these things actually trying to deviate from the path or for "Bohdisatva traing?"
Thus it was said, and in reference to this was it said...

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LastLegend
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by LastLegend » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:01 am

Mahayana and Vajrayana have a slight different understanding to Dharma than Arhat Yana does. Some followers of Arhat Yana even think that Mahayana and Vajrayan are herectical. Even in among Vietnamese Mahayana monks, I have heard stories of monks who committed unwholesome acts. So you will have to find a community that you are comfortable to be a part of, in your own perspective of how they should behave. For example, if Mahayana monks have committed adultery, that is a no no for the Mahayana Buddhists (especially East Asian Mahayana Buddhists). Those monks are looked down upon because Mahayana Buddhists have certain expectations of monks; monks should be vegetarian and celibate because they believe monks represent holiness and highly respected spiritual figures uncontaminated by worldly desires. On the other hand, it's common for Tibetan Lamas/Gurus to have wives. But they all practice Dharma via different methods and subscribe to the teaching of emptiness.

As for Theravada monks, they eat whatever food is offered to them. Sometime meat, sometime vegetarian. If you want the Mahayana or Vajrayana route, you must reconcile these different variations. But it's well known that followers of Arhat Yana strictly adhere to what they believe to be the authentic teaching or practice taught by the Buddha.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Grigoris
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Grigoris » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:18 am

Malcolm wrote:Everything but the fist fights, this is Mahāyāna after all...
Well, I'm a Muay Thai teacher as well as a (bad) Vajrayana practitioner, so I get the fist fights too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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lorem
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by lorem » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:57 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Everything but the fist fights, this is Mahāyāna after all...
Well, I'm a Muay Thai teacher as well as a (bad) Vajrayana practitioner, so I get the fist fights too.
No wonder you are a moderator.
--------

The other important thing is teacher. I think more important in Tibetan than Theravada but not quite totally sure. One thing that has been a real journey for me is who is my teacher. I want to pray to my teacher and offer things--devotion--but I wasn't sure. There are a lot of teachers I admire but that special heart connection is really important.

EDIT and books, people, etc will say you can just think of Buddha, or Vajradhara but I found too distant. Of course Buddha was awesome guy but need a connection.
I should be meditating.

Arjan Dirkse
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Arjan Dirkse » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:23 pm

LastLegend wrote:There are skeletons everywhere whether it's Theravada Mahayana or Vajrayana my friend. You have to find a group that you are comfortable to work with.
:good:

OP, don't look for for bad behavior in others. Just look for the pureness in your own heart.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:38 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
LastLegend wrote:There are skeletons everywhere whether it's Theravada Mahayana or Vajrayana my friend. You have to find a group that you are comfortable to work with.
:good:

OP, don't look for for bad behavior in others. Just look for the pureness in your own heart.
... and don't expect all the teachers, let alone the lay followers, of any school to live up to the ideals of that school. Many of them do their very best, many of them don't try so hard but are still good people and (in every tradition) some have the faults you mention in your first post.

:meditate:
Kim

TheClearlightKiwi
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by TheClearlightKiwi » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:01 am

Dearest original poster this is my first post ever. I just want to say please do not confuse yourself by thinking that the Hinayana is something to be renounced. The holy hinayana vehicle is included in all the 8 other vehicles. The 84000 teachings of the buddha including Hinayana all lead to the view of Dzogchen. One may enter the view of the mahayana but the conduct of the mahayana is in fact the vinaya of the Hinayana. The most important thing you can do apart from studying and keeping the precepts is to develop refuge in the triple gem within your mindstream. You can do this in a hinayana way or a mahayana way its up to you. That way if you die suddenly you will be able to rememeber the 3 jewels. I reccomend you to study the teaching s of renunciation and what this really means. Also please do not give a minutes thought to those who appear to be following the buddha in a wrong manner. Do not let them deter your faith in the 3 jewels. Rememeber you will never renounce the hinayana even if you become a mahayanist and then a tantric practitioner or even ati yoga , one never renounces the lower vehicles they are all incorporated as the buddha's teachings aRE ALL PERFECT.

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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:26 pm

TheClearlightKiwi wrote:Dearest original poster this is my first post ever. I just want to say please do not confuse yourself by thinking that the Hinayana is something to be renounced. The holy hinayana vehicle is included in all the 8 other vehicles. The 84000 teachings of the buddha including Hinayana all lead to the view of Dzogchen. One may enter the view of the mahayana but the conduct of the mahayana is in fact the vinaya of the Hinayana. The most important thing you can do apart from studying and keeping the precepts is to develop refuge in the triple gem within your mindstream. You can do this in a hinayana way or a mahayana way its up to you. That way if you die suddenly you will be able to rememeber the 3 jewels. I reccomend you to study the teaching s of renunciation and what this really means. Also please do not give a minutes thought to those who appear to be following the buddha in a wrong manner. Do not let them deter your faith in the 3 jewels. Rememeber you will never renounce the hinayana even if you become a mahayanist and then a tantric practitioner or even ati yoga , one never renounces the lower vehicles they are all incorporated as the buddha's teachings aRE ALL PERFECT.
While flinching a little at the use of the term ' Hinayana ' , because it has become tainted through being used as a term of abuse..I would agree with the main thrust of this..
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by smcj » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:28 pm

LastLegend wrote:There are skeletons everywhere whether it's Theravada Mahayana or Vajrayana my friend. You have to find a group that you are comfortable to work with.
My teacher told me, "Don't worry about what other people aren't able to do with Dharma." It is normal to hope/expect support form our fellow practitioners, but we must remember that only kind of person that does Dharma perfectly is a Buddha.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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SamBodhi
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by SamBodhi » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:47 pm

Lotus_Bitch wrote: As to the latter, the most similar would be Sutra Mahamudra, but jhanas are not generally emphasized in Tibetan Buddhism; "access concentration" is sufficient enough to practice vipashyana in that tradition.
What is a good introduction to Sutra Mahamudra?

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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:28 pm

SamBodhi wrote:What is a good introduction to Sutra Mahamudra?
The Sakyapas will tell you. They're really into sutra mahamudra. They love it.

:tongue:

But if you change your mind and want to learn about Ganges mahamudra instead:

http://www.pointingoutway.org/downloads/tilopa.pdf

:tongue:

Or here is the bigger picture:

Image

SamBodhi
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Re: Renouncing Theravada

Post by SamBodhi » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:27 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
SamBodhi wrote:What is a good introduction to Sutra Mahamudra?
The Sakyapas will tell you. They're really into sutra mahamudra. They love it.

:tongue:

But if you change your mind and want to learn about Ganges mahamudra instead:

http://www.pointingoutway.org/downloads/tilopa.pdf

:tongue:

Or here is the bigger picture:

Image
What is the difference between Sutra and Ganges?

Coincidentally, I have that book.

SamBodhi
no tea is too good for me

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