Rainbow Body - Why?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24999
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 03, 2015 5:21 pm

Tenso wrote:

Well, there is really no such thing as an immortal nirmanakayā because the rūpakāya always arises out of the dharmakāya, and therefore, the issue of mortal/immortal never arises for a buddha. If you can achieve buddhahood by a given path, then you realize dharmakāya, and if you realize dharmakāya, you can always generate rūpakāya, which you do so in response to the needs of sentient beings.
Thats good to know but then why do you need two accumulations to achieve buddhahood? If im not mistaken you need one accumulation to realize rupakaya and the other one for dharmakaya so what your saying is you only really need one? Help clarify please.
You need to accumulate merit to realize emptiness, as well as the rūpakāya. You need to accumulate wisdom to realize the dharmakāya.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Rakz
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Rakz » Sun May 03, 2015 9:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tenso wrote:

Well, there is really no such thing as an immortal nirmanakayā because the rūpakāya always arises out of the dharmakāya, and therefore, the issue of mortal/immortal never arises for a buddha. If you can achieve buddhahood by a given path, then you realize dharmakāya, and if you realize dharmakāya, you can always generate rūpakāya, which you do so in response to the needs of sentient beings.
Thats good to know but then why do you need two accumulations to achieve buddhahood? If im not mistaken you need one accumulation to realize rupakaya and the other one for dharmakaya so what your saying is you only really need one? Help clarify please.
You need to accumulate merit to realize emptiness, as well as the rūpakāya. You need to accumulate wisdom to realize the dharmakāya.
Confusing. Dharmakaya is emptiness.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24999
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 03, 2015 10:10 pm

Tenso wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
You need to accumulate merit to realize emptiness, as well as the rūpakāya. You need to accumulate wisdom to realize the dharmakāya.
Confusing. Dharmakaya is emptiness.
No, Dharmakāya is the two fold omniscience that comes from realizing emptiness and accumulating wisdom. Accumulating merit improves your mind and makes it ever more clear.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Rakz
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Rakz » Sun May 03, 2015 11:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tenso wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
You need to accumulate merit to realize emptiness, as well as the rūpakāya. You need to accumulate wisdom to realize the dharmakāya.
Confusing. Dharmakaya is emptiness.
No, Dharmakāya is the two fold omniscience that comes from realizing emptiness and accumulating wisdom. Accumulating merit improves your mind and makes it ever more clear.
Can you explain the sambhogakaya more? It is a rupakaya form that arises out of dharmakaya but does not dissolve back into it like nirmanakaya dissolves back into sambhogakaya?

fckw
Posts: 303
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by fckw » Wed May 06, 2015 9:50 pm

I remember having seen an announcement for the publication of a book in fall 2014. Apparently it contained translations of three (?) texts on working with the thigles, one of them about the Kalachakra system the other two about Dzogchen. I don't think this was a restricted book, but I might be wrong. I have seen someone mentioning it here in the forum, but I just cannot find it anymore. Anyone knows what I am talking about? (It's not Heart Drops of Dharmakaya.)

User avatar
TheSynergist
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:34 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by TheSynergist » Sat May 09, 2015 9:24 pm

I too used to think the whole idea of the "rainbow body" was rather superfluous, just like I didn't quite get the point to the resurrection of the dead in the Abrahamic traditions. However, the more and more I become involved in meditation, the more and more aware I become of the importance of the body. So much of what I experience during meditation is happening in my body --- my mind is just a receiver/transmitter for such information. A couple of quotes on this point:

From the Assutava Sutta:
It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
Catholic contemplative Bernadette Roberts on the "no self" experience:
One outcome, then, of the no-self experience is the disclosure of the true nature of self or consciousness. As it turns out, self is the entire system of consciousness, from the unconscious to God-consciousness, the entire dimension of human knowledge and feeling-experience. Because the terms "self" and "consciousness" express the same experiences (nothing can be said of one that cannot be said of the other), they are only definable in the terms of "experience". Every other definition is conjecture and speculation. No-self, then, means no-consciousness. If this is shocking to some people, it is only because they do not know the true nature of consciousness. Sometimes we get so caught up in the content of consciousness, we forget that consciousness is also a somatic function of the physical body, and, like every such function, it is not eternal. Perhaps we would do better searching for the divine in our bodies than amid the content and experience of consciousness.

WeiHan
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:50 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by WeiHan » Sun May 10, 2015 7:42 am

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:When I posed this question to ChNN he said the former is the exhaustion of karma and the latter results in the body of light. The implication is that togal has a higher result re immortal nirmanakaya of light.
According to Sachen, the result of the completion stage is that the physical body reverts to wisdom. There is no difference in the results at all; the path is the only difference.
Hi Malcohm,

Do you mean the rainbow body attained in Naro Kacho is the same as Great Transference Light Body attained through Togal?

My understanding is that the rainbow body attained in Naro kacho is similar to that attained in Trecho which is the shrinking in physical body into light after death but it is not a Great Transference Light Body similar to Togal practice. Of course, another accomplishment of Naro Kacho is flying to Akanistha without leaving behind the gross body.

And then in Kalachakra practice, the body can also dissolve after death but it dissolves into the small particles instead of into light.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24999
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 10, 2015 3:32 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:When I posed this question to ChNN he said the former is the exhaustion of karma and the latter results in the body of light. The implication is that togal has a higher result re immortal nirmanakaya of light.
According to Sachen, the result of the completion stage is that the physical body reverts to wisdom. There is no difference in the results at all; the path is the only difference.
Hi Malcohm,

Do you mean the rainbow body attained in Naro Kacho is the same as Great Transference Light Body attained through Togal?

My understanding is that the rainbow body attained in Naro kacho is similar to that attained in Trecho which is the shrinking in physical body into light after death but it is not a Great Transference Light Body similar to Togal practice. Of course, another accomplishment of Naro Kacho is flying to Akanistha without leaving behind the gross body.

And then in Kalachakra practice, the body can also dissolve after death but it dissolves into the small particles instead of into light.
I can only relate was is stated in the Sachen's texts, as above.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon May 11, 2015 10:52 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:When I posed this question to ChNN he said the former is the exhaustion of karma and the latter results in the body of light. The implication is that togal has a higher result re immortal nirmanakaya of light.
According to Sachen, the result of the completion stage is that the physical body reverts to wisdom. There is no difference in the results at all; the path is the only difference.
Hi Malcohm,

Do you mean the rainbow body attained in Naro Kacho is the same as Great Transference Light Body attained through Togal?

My understanding is that the rainbow body attained in Naro kacho is similar to that attained in Trecho which is the shrinking in physical body into light after death but it is not a Great Transference Light Body similar to Togal practice. Of course, another accomplishment of Naro Kacho is flying to Akanistha without leaving behind the gross body.

And then in Kalachakra practice, the body can also dissolve after death but it dissolves into the small particles instead of into light.
Taking ones body to Kechara leaving not even hair, nails or clothes is probably the Same as great transfer. Or maybe it's even higher. Or maybe it's the atoms result said euphemistically. Who knows.
Delete my account

samsarasucks
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 5:27 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by samsarasucks » Wed May 27, 2015 2:44 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tenso wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
You need to accumulate merit to realize emptiness, as well as the rūpakāya. You need to accumulate wisdom to realize the dharmakāya.
Confusing. Dharmakaya is emptiness.
No, Dharmakāya is the two fold omniscience that comes from realizing emptiness and accumulating wisdom. Accumulating merit improves your mind and makes it ever more clear.
So you've seen or are an omniscient person?

kashmir
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 12:41 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by kashmir » Sun May 31, 2015 4:44 am

Someone mentioned that there has not been many cases of the rainbow body however I just wanted to add that there has been over one hundred thousand documented cases of rainbow body occurring. Dzogchen teachings are said to be taught in 33 star systems other than our own. So we cannot assume our historical timeline is the most spiritually developed. In that dimension of accomplishment it is not to outlandish to suppose that these practitioners from multiple galaxies and timelines are constantly emanating and interchanging within our own. Perhaps we don't recognize them in the grocery store, yet these teachings are vast as the sky. Even the Ancient Egyptians, Christianity as well as multiple mystery schools show signs of achieving the great transfer and rainbow body as well as suggestions that those accomplished practitioners were traveling between different dimensions. The practice of perfection is beyond any school and has to do with the nature within any being.

Rakz
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Rakz » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there is really no such thing as an immortal nirmanakayā because the rūpakāya always arises out of the dharmakāya, and therefore, the issue of mortal/immortal never arises for a buddha. If you can achieve buddhahood by a given path, then you realize dharmakāya, and if you realize dharmakāya, you can always generate rūpakāya, which you do so in response to the needs of sentient beings.
When the body transforms into the five wisdom lights aka rainbow body, you are saying that it is the dharmakaya that is generating a rupakaya? I've read somewhere that the rainbow body is already present in each and every sentient being so would using the word "generate" be an incorrect word to use? How do you "generate" something that is already there?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24999
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:14 pm

Tenso wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, there is really no such thing as an immortal nirmanakayā because the rūpakāya always arises out of the dharmakāya, and therefore, the issue of mortal/immortal never arises for a buddha. If you can achieve buddhahood by a given path, then you realize dharmakāya, and if you realize dharmakāya, you can always generate rūpakāya, which you do so in response to the needs of sentient beings.
When the body transforms into the five wisdom lights aka rainbow body, you are saying that it is the dharmakaya that is generating a rupakaya? I've read somewhere that the rainbow body is already present in each and every sentient being so would using the word "generate" be an incorrect word to use? How do you "generate" something that is already there?
In reality, the body does not transform, it reverts back into its real nature as wisdom light.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 1652
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:26 pm

Malcolm wrote: In reality, the body does not transform, it reverts back into its real nature as wisdom light.
What's the fundamental difference between 'transforming' and 'reverting'? At first glance, I can't see a difference.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24999
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:38 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
Malcolm wrote: In reality, the body does not transform, it reverts back into its real nature as wisdom light.
What's the fundamental difference between 'transforming' and 'reverting'? At first glance, I can't see a difference.
In the first case, one thing turns into another thing; in the second case, one thing goes back to the way it was.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

User avatar
bryandavis
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by bryandavis » Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:21 am

tomamundsen wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
In reality, the body does not transform, it reverts back into its real nature as wisdom light.

What's the fundamental difference between 'transforming' and 'reverting'? At first glance, I can't see a difference.

In the first case, one thing turns into another thing; in the second case, one thing goes back to the way it was.
So in regard to what you were saying in this thread about Sapan by accomplishing the completion stage the body reverts back to wisdom,

would this reasoning be in line with that from a sarma approach: through transformation (generation) one counteracts the impure view, through dzogrim one works with the subtle energies while maintaining or being in that pure view and because of that then one is able to revert back or re-integrate to how it was before confusion?

*edit* it is almost like one cannot revert back to the base if one has not cut through all the impure interpretations or perception, and creation/complete when brought to fruition then allows that?

kashmir
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 12:41 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by kashmir » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:04 pm

For a Guru to teach the complete path of the four visions... have they achieved that experience themselves? Therefore, have the teachers already accomplished the complete practice including the experience of the four visions before they are able to transmit it to a student?

MalaBeads
Posts: 803
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by MalaBeads » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:07 pm

kashmir wrote:For a Guru to teach the complete path of the four visions... have they achieved that experience themselves? Therefore, have the teachers already accomplished the complete practice including the experience of the four visions before they are able to transmit it to a student?
It's a very interesting question and of course I have no idea. I will say a couple things here though.

Recently I attended a webcast in which Lama Lodro (KDK, San Francisco) acknowledged that he had not accomplished the Six Yogas of Naropa. He said, if he said that he had,he would be lying. I thought that was a brave acknowdgement. We all have to not only know where we are, but be willing to share it.

With respect to the question that Kashmir just asked, i would respond by saying that the end of one's life is an indiviualistic, and perhaps, lonely journey. No one knows how they will die, or when. Does anyone here who can read these words have the capacity to achieve rainbow body? I would sincerely doubt it. But of course, you never know. When each person faces those last moments, I am assuming that no matter how much your teacher has prepared you, there will be surprises and unexpected events occur. My these are my assumptions of course.

Will 'achieving rainbow body' become a kind of fad? Or has it already? Who knows.

Good luck to all.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: escargotmycargo, Jyotish, Starcide and 38 guests