Rainbow Body - Why?

Rakz
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Rakz » Sat May 02, 2015 2:04 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tenso wrote:I understand rainbow body is used to help sentient beings but is that its only sole purpose? Is it not also used to indulge in bliss or is only dharmakaya necessary for that?

Tashi delek T,

For me yes it is this mentality (compassion) which comes together with enlightenment, the activity of helping.So compassion all the Buddhas have.
But what they will do regarding helping sentient beings, as a Buddha is mentioned in their vows.
Already during the stages before the realisation of enlightenment , during the development of the Bodhicitta one develops this aspiration to help.
Bliss can arise due to practice or spontaneous. Bliss is a sign of realisation and one does not do practice solely for getting bliss.

If this would be the case that one is only doing practice to get blissfull situations than this would be a blockade to Enlightenment .

I hope you can understand my English, because some think it causes misunderstandings........ :shock:


Mutsug Marro
KY
Being free from dukkha and entering nirvanic bliss is the whole point of the path I think.

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Admin_PC » Sat May 02, 2015 2:55 am

The point of the Mahayana view (and the Vajrayana path) is centered around Bodhicitta and the desire to liberate all sentient beings from suffering.
月影の いたらぬ里は なけれども 眺むる人の 心にぞすむ
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Rakz
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Rakz » Sat May 02, 2015 3:26 am

PorkChop wrote:The point of the Mahayana view (and the Vajrayana path) is centered around Bodhicitta and the desire to liberate all sentient beings from suffering.
Best of luck.

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LunaRoja
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by LunaRoja » Sat May 02, 2015 8:42 am

Hello,

Why is the rainbow body accomplished from Naro Kacho practice different from the rainbow body accomplished through togyal? I am not clear on why there is a difference.

fckw
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by fckw » Sat May 02, 2015 8:54 am

fckw wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tenso wrote: What is the difference between mahayana sambhogakaya and rainbow body?
The Mahāyāna Sambhogakāya is visible only to 8th stage bodhisattvas on up. While lesser rainbow body is only observable through the sign of the shrinking of the body after death, the so called great transformation body, rainbow body attained while still alive, is visible to everyone. Only a small handful of practitioners have achieved this result. Most practitioners of Vajrayāna, regardless of tradition, attain Buddhahood during the bardo.
Just one question for understanding. Is realization of the lesser rainbow body, as Malcolm refers to in the quote, a "binary" event or is it "gradual"? What I mean is: Does someone realize the lesser RB once, and then it's irrevocably realized, or is it rather that such a one has to go through the same steps of realization again and again, until finally the fruition is the lesser RB?

Another issue is that if there is a lesser and a greater RB, this would imply that even after buddhahood (=attainment of lesser RB) there is or may be further deepening and development - at least until greater RB is realized.

Any comments?
I'd really appreciate any answers or comments.

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Malcolm
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 02, 2015 12:05 pm

LunaRoja wrote:Hello,

Why is the rainbow body accomplished from Naro Kacho practice different from the rainbow body accomplished through togyal? I am not clear on why there is a difference.
It isn't.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat May 02, 2015 12:56 pm

When I posed this question to ChNN he said the former is the exhaustion of karma and the latter results in the body of light. The implication is that togal has a higher result re immortal nirmanakaya of light.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 02, 2015 1:09 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:When I posed this question to ChNN he said the former is the exhaustion of karma and the latter results in the body of light. The implication is that togal has a higher result re immortal nirmanakaya of light.
According to Sachen, the result of the completion stage is that the physical body reverts to wisdom. There is no difference in the results at all; the path is the only difference.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat May 02, 2015 1:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:When I posed this question to ChNN he said the former is the exhaustion of karma and the latter results in the body of light. The implication is that togal has a higher result re immortal nirmanakaya of light.
According to Sachen, the result of the completion stage is that the physical body reverts to wisdom. There is no difference in the results at all; the path is the only difference.
I still feel the inner yanas might be a higher view, path and result, bc of the way five lights manifest beyond volition.but also bc guhyagarbha has these two stages of completion w Mahamudra preceding clear light.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 02, 2015 1:47 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:When I posed this question to ChNN he said the former is the exhaustion of karma and the latter results in the body of light. The implication is that togal has a higher result re immortal nirmanakaya of light.
According to Sachen, the result of the completion stage is that the physical body reverts to wisdom. There is no difference in the results at all; the path is the only difference.
I still feel the inner yanas might be a higher view, path and result, bc of the way five lights manifest beyond volition.but also bc guhyagarbha has these two stages of completion w Mahamudra preceding clear light.
"Inner yānas" thinking only applies to Nyingma tantras. It is not relevant to gsar ma. One cannot fit Hevajra, Cakrasamvara, etc., into the Nyingma classification scheme (which never existed in India in any case).

In any case, wisdom is wisdom. The fact that the body reverts to wisdom is the identical in both systems.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Admin_PC » Sat May 02, 2015 4:25 pm

Tenso wrote:
PorkChop wrote:The point of the Mahayana view (and the Vajrayana path) is centered around Bodhicitta and the desire to liberate all sentient beings from suffering.
Best of luck.
Thanks. :)
But you know for me, this isn't accomplished without some help.
月影の いたらぬ里は なけれども 眺むる人の 心にぞすむ
法然上人

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LunaRoja
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by LunaRoja » Sat May 02, 2015 4:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:Hello,

Why is the rainbow body accomplished from Naro Kacho practice different from the rainbow body accomplished through togyal? I am not clear on why there is a difference.
It isn't.
Thank you Malcolm. I seem to recall your stating on the old esangha that there was a difference between the two. This clears up a misunderstanding I've had for years.

Kind Regards,

LR

fckw
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by fckw » Sun May 03, 2015 12:23 am

fckw wrote:
fckw wrote: Just one question for understanding. Is realization of the lesser rainbow body, as Malcolm refers to in the quote, a "binary" event or is it "gradual"? What I mean is: Does someone realize the lesser RB once, and then it's irrevocably realized, or is it rather that such a one has to go through the same steps of realization again and again, until finally the fruition is the lesser RB?

Another issue is that if there is a lesser and a greater RB, this would imply that even after buddhahood (=attainment of lesser RB) there is or may be further deepening and development - at least until greater RB is realized.

Any comments?
I'd really appreciate any answers or comments.
Ok, this answers part of my question.

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun May 03, 2015 2:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
According to Sachen, the result of the completion stage is that the physical body reverts to wisdom. There is no difference in the results at all; the path is the only difference.
I still feel the inner yanas might be a higher view, path and result, bc of the way five lights manifest beyond volition.but also bc guhyagarbha has these two stages of completion w Mahamudra preceding clear light.
"Inner yānas" thinking only applies to Nyingma tantras. It is not relevant to gsar ma. One cannot fit Hevajra, Cakrasamvara, etc., into the Nyingma classification scheme (which never existed in India in any case).

In any case, wisdom is wisdom. The fact that the body reverts to wisdom is the identical in both systems.
Yes. I've often wondered if this were true. But the lights thing
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 03, 2015 2:45 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
"Inner yānas" thinking only applies to Nyingma tantras. It is not relevant to gsar ma. One cannot fit Hevajra, Cakrasamvara, etc., into the Nyingma classification scheme (which never existed in India in any case).

In any case, wisdom is wisdom. The fact that the body reverts to wisdom is the identical in both systems.
Yes. I've often wondered if this were true. But the lights thing
What lights thing? Can you be more specific? You mean the five lights?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun May 03, 2015 3:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
"Inner yānas" thinking only applies to Nyingma tantras. It is not relevant to gsar ma. One cannot fit Hevajra, Cakrasamvara, etc., into the Nyingma classification scheme (which never existed in India in any case).

In any case, wisdom is wisdom. The fact that the body reverts to wisdom is the identical in both systems.
Yes. I've often wondered if this were true. But the lights thing
What lights thing? Can you be more specific? You mean the five lights?
Yes
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 03, 2015 3:36 pm

Crazywisdom wrote: Yes
Right, well, they are there in gsar ma, just expressed differently. A certain point in your practice, one can visibly see the elemental winds in their colors. The connection elements ——> winds ——> wisdoms is made in gsar ma tantra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun May 03, 2015 4:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote: Yes
Right, well, they are there in gsar ma, just expressed differently. A certain point in your practice, one can visibly see the elemental winds in their colors. The connection elements ——> winds ——> wisdoms is made in gsar ma tantra.
So they do or do not have a means of manifesting an immortal nirmanakaya like GR?
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 03, 2015 4:39 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote: Yes
Right, well, they are there in gsar ma, just expressed differently. A certain point in your practice, one can visibly see the elemental winds in their colors. The connection elements ——> winds ——> wisdoms is made in gsar ma tantra.
So they do or do not have a means of manifesting an immortal nirmanakaya like GR?
Well, there is really no such thing as an immortal nirmanakayā because the rūpakāya always arises out of the dharmakāya, and therefore, the issue of mortal/immortal never arises for a buddha. If you can achieve buddhahood by a given path, then you realize dharmakāya, and if you realize dharmakāya, you can always generate rūpakāya, which you do so in response to the needs of sentient beings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Rakz
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Post by Rakz » Sun May 03, 2015 5:17 pm


Well, there is really no such thing as an immortal nirmanakayā because the rūpakāya always arises out of the dharmakāya, and therefore, the issue of mortal/immortal never arises for a buddha. If you can achieve buddhahood by a given path, then you realize dharmakāya, and if you realize dharmakāya, you can always generate rūpakāya, which you do so in response to the needs of sentient beings.
Thats good to know but then why do you need two accumulations to achieve buddhahood? If im not mistaken you need one accumulation to realize rupakaya and the other one for dharmakaya so what your saying is you only really need one? Help clarify please.

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