Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

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Norwegian
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Norwegian » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:09 pm

It is to be kept secret. It is a Vajrayana practice after all.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:24 pm

For an unenlightened person such as myself, I do wonder about forming the habit to eat meat, couldn't this contribute to one being born in the animal realm?

Also, why does a vajrayana practitioner benefit being by eating them but an ordinary mahayana practitioner would not? Wouldn't the connection still be made to benefit them when one attains buddhahood?

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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Norwegian » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:37 pm

Mahayana lacks the methods that Vajrayana and Dzogchen have.

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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by kashmir » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:42 pm

Lets put this to rest now. If one has a tantric initiation and commitments it explains in the fourteen common tantric root downfalls that : "Not relying properly on the subastnces that bond us closely to tantric practice (such as consider as nauseating the consecrated alcohol and meat tasted specifically in periodic offering ceremonies known as tsog pujas, to refuse them on the grounds of being a teetotaler or a vegetarian, or alternatively, to take them in large quantities with gusto and attachment."
and who said you were unenlightened? :namaste:

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Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:54 pm

kashmir wrote:Lets put this to rest now. If one has a tantric initiation and commitments it explains in the fourteen common tantric root downfalls that : "Not relying properly on the subastnces that bond us closely to tantric practice (such as consider as nauseating the consecrated alcohol and meat tasted specifically in periodic offering ceremonies known as tsog pujas, to refuse them on the grounds of being a teetotaler or a vegetarian, or alternatively, to take them in large quantities with gusto and attachment."
and who said you were unenlightened? :namaste:
The vow actually specifies refusing samaya articles only. You are supposed to enjoy them with gusto, but without attachment.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

kashmir
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by kashmir » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:59 pm

Ah, ok thanks. Gusto is a great word

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anjali
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by anjali » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:No. In my ideal world, animals would not be slaughtered at all. There are many ways to benefit animals through the six liberations while they are alive as well. Unfortunately, it is not likely I can have contact with those who wind up before me on my plate before they are slaughtered/fished, and so therefore I use the methods available to me to help as I can.
Agreed. In an ideal world no animals would be slaughtered. Your answer helps me refine my question.

Sadly, we don't live in an ideal world. Vajrayana practitoners live in a world where so many animals are slaughtered for consumption. Given that fact, would the most compassionate diet possible be one where every bite we take is making a connection with a slaughtered animal?

Yes, I know this is going to an extreme, but I'm not being flippant. Just pushing the envelope to get at the full implication that eating meat with right view benefits the consumed animal. Followed to it's logical conclusion, it would seem to imply that the most ethical/compassionate diet for a vajrayana practitioner living in today's world should be an exclusively meat-eating diet?
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kashmir
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by kashmir » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:12 am

There is also the conduct of a practitioner: without attachment or aversion, whatever appears is accepted and enjoyed as the non dual aspect of ones own nature.

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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Loren Enders » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:43 am

http://www.sangye.it/altro/?p=5575

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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by srivijaya » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:30 am

anjali wrote:Well, the way I've heard it explained is that we already have a connection with the animal--if you believe that all sentient beings have been our mother at some point in our past lives. In a sense, eating the flesh of an animal is eating the flesh of one of our former mothers. I can only speak for myself in saying that that understanding is enough for me to eliminate consuming meat as part of my diet, or consuming the least amount possible to satisfy vows in a ritual setting.
:good:

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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Ayu » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:42 am

I recommend reading the whole thread in order to prevent endless discussion loops.

If you like to discuss about vegetarianism in general and not exclusevly in Dzogchen, please join "The Great Vegetarian Debate":
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=213


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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by udawa » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:17 pm

Ayu wrote:I recommend reading the whole thread in order to prevent endless discussion loops.

If you like to discuss about vegetarianism in general and not exclusevly in Dzogchen, please join "The Great Vegetarian Debate":
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=213


:namaste:
Gosh, the G.V.D. is a bit like samsara, i.e. notorious for being without end. It has now reached 185 pages, with 3690 posts since it kicked off in April 2009. But this thread isn't doing too badly by comparison - 170 replies over 9 pages, in just under a week.

There is definitely something about this topic that touches a nerve with us western buddhists...
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.

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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:25 pm

udawa wrote:
Ayu wrote:I recommend reading the whole thread in order to prevent endless discussion loops.

If you like to discuss about vegetarianism in general and not exclusevly in Dzogchen, please join "The Great Vegetarian Debate":
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=213


:namaste:
Gosh, the G.V.D. is a bit like samsara, i.e. notorious for being without end. It has now reached 185 pages, with 3690 posts since it kicked off in April 2009. But this thread isn't doing too badly by comparison - 170 replies over 9 pages, in just under a week.

There is definitely something about this topic that touches a nerve with us western buddhists...
Possibly, but I think the reason is in part the assumption made by a proportion of we western Buddhists that Buddhists are vegetarian.
I have seen the shock on the faces of those, particularly those who have come to Buddhadharma via Vedanta and yoga when they realise that some are, and some including some well known teachers, are not.


:focus:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by jmlee369 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:32 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Paul wrote:
*bumping my post in the hope someone can answer it...*
You can recite the mantra from Jigme Lingpa's short ganapuja,"ram yam....puja hoh!" for example. Or just the three syllables.
Is it OK to do this in a public place or in front of non-practitioners? Or should it be kept secret?
In general, the more important part is the visualisation. I'm speaking from a sarma HYT perspective, but part of deity yoga is the yoga of eating. Not sure how much detail to go into, but it's usually described as eating in the manner of an inner fire puja.

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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:47 pm

Personally I think thats enough detail. Since the advent of the internet we are seeing a phenomenon which formerly was very uncommon..people who figure out that if they piece enough clues and fragments together that they can dispense with Wangs and instruction and do it themselves.

The resulting confusion can readily be seen on some other forums..there is one aimed at newbies which hosts disasters waiting to happen...
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:20 pm

anjali wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No. In my ideal world, animals would not be slaughtered at all. There are many ways to benefit animals through the six liberations while they are alive as well. Unfortunately, it is not likely I can have contact with those who wind up before me on my plate before they are slaughtered/fished, and so therefore I use the methods available to me to help as I can.
Agreed. In an ideal world no animals would be slaughtered. Your answer helps me refine my question.

Sadly, we don't live in an ideal world. Vajrayana practitoners live in a world where so many animals are slaughtered for consumption. Given that fact, would the most compassionate diet possible be one where every bite we take is making a connection with a slaughtered animal?

Yes, I know this is going to an extreme, but I'm not being flippant. Just pushing the envelope to get at the full implication that eating meat with right view benefits the consumed animal. Followed to it's logical conclusion, it would seem to imply that the most ethical/compassionate diet for a vajrayana practitioner living in today's world should be an exclusively meat-eating diet?
Every bite we take is already connected with a slaughtered animal down to every piece of lettuce. Therefore, the most ethical and compassionate diet is to understand that every thing we eat involves the death of some creature somewhere, somehow.

The principle of Buddhadharma is avihimsa, non-harming. But there is very little we can do in the world control the harm of the kind of wide spread agriculture and other related industries do to the world and the living creatures in it, both sentient and non-sentient. We cannot control other human beings, all we can do is control ourselves, refrain from harming others, and try to benefit those who have been harmed by any means possible. When someone who has received Dzogchen teachings refuses to eat meat when it is offered to them, or in a puja, they are effectively deciding not to help some being that has been harmed. In this case, not eating meat harms compassion.

Since we are not Jains nor followers of Devadatta, we do not believe that karma is an automatic non-volitional force that comes from every act that we engage in. Karma only comes from any intentional act in which we engage.

Also we have a responsibility to ourselves. We must eat meat when it is indicated for our health. There are, in both Ayurveda and Tibetan medicine, many forms of meat, many kinds of animal products, that are used regularly. The reason we do not use regular Tibetan incense for Nāgā pujas is because in general Tibetan incense contains musk, which is harmful and offensive to Nāgās. Also we must not eat too much of any one thing, because this will cause our humors to become unbalanced. So the principle of nonharming includes not harming ourselves, and that extends to our diets.

As in everything, there are limits to our capacity. So we do what we can, always wish we could do more and never lose our focus of compassion for all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:25 pm

I think it's useful to appreciate that there are subtexts woven through this subject. It's clear to me that inji converts to vajrayana are responding to a variety of issues, as are contemporary lamas, all of which stand outside the skillful means of the vajrayana. Quite bluntly, at least in America, we've gone insane when it comes to food, in particular animal products. It's the only time in human history that people intentionally drive animals into various disease states only to eat them. It's a far cry from hunting-gathering, and it's a far cry from culling herd-stocks from a local microecology. It's really a form of madness. It's also an American thing to feel that we're malnourished unless our whole alimentary canal is full of red meat, which is another form of madness, and simultaneously a health and environmental crisis. Whether the response of vegetarian ganapuja's is the proper response is really up to individuals and their lamas IMHO, but I think it's best to be realistic and honest that people are responding to this issue of meat eating along multiple axes...

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Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:42 pm

Urgyen Dorje wrote:I think it's useful to appreciate that there are subtexts woven through this subject. It's clear to me that inji converts to vajrayana are responding to a variety of issues, as are contemporary lamas, all of which stand outside the skillful means of the vajrayana. Quite bluntly, at least in America, we've gone insane when it comes to food, in particular animal products. It's the only time in human history that people intentionally drive animals into various disease states only to eat them. It's a far cry from hunting-gathering, and it's a far cry from culling herd-stocks from a local microecology. It's really a form of madness. It's also an American thing to feel that we're malnourished unless our whole alimentary canal is full of red meat, which is another form of madness, and simultaneously a health and environmental crisis. Whether the response of vegetarian ganapuja's is the proper response is really up to individuals and their lamas IMHO, but I think it's best to be realistic and honest that people are responding to this issue of meat eating along multiple axes...
First of all, why are you using the racist, belittling term, inji?

Secondly, there are no "converts" to Buddhism.

Of course people are responding to this issue along a variety of axes. I am merely clarifying the principles enunciated by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Dzogchen teachings (Do you have any idea of how many kinds of meat are recommended for Chulen in the sgra thal gyur tantra?)

Meat and dairy consumption is rising world wide because, frankly, meat and dairy based diets are more nutritionally dense than solely plant-based diets and people become larger and more powerful when they rely on them. When they enter the middle class, of course they want more meat in their diets. Of course this brings a range of health issues into play.

But here the discussion mainly revolves around a discomfited response to ChNN's teachings. We can discuss side issues, but lets keep it a little focused, ok?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:56 pm

I call myself an "inji convert" because that's Tibetans and Tibetan lamas have referred to people like myself.

I actually agree with you about everything you've said about meat and the orthodox view of vajrayana.

I just threw this comment in because dialog with multiple grains just become less clear with time.
Malcolm wrote:First of all, why are you using the racist, belittling term, inji?

Secondly, there are no "converts" to Buddhism.

Of course people are responding to this issue along a variety of axes. I am merely clarifying the principles enunciated by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Dzogchen teachings (Do you have any idea of how many kinds of meat are recommended for Chulen in the sgra thal gyur tantra?)

Meat and dairy consumption is rising world wide because, frankly, meat and dairy based diets are more nutritionally dense than solely plant-based diets and people become larger and more powerful when they rely on them. When they enter the middle class, of course they want more meat in their diets. Of course this brings a range of health issues into play.

But here the discussion mainly revolves around a discomfited response to ChNN's teachings. We can discuss side issues, but lets keep it a little focused, ok?

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Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:58 pm

Urgyen Dorje wrote:I call myself an "inji convert" because that's Tibetans and Tibetan lamas have referred to people like myself.
Its a racist term. The idea that we are "converts" is also nonsense.

I am not an "inji", I am an American. I am also not a convert.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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