Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Simon E.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:08 pm

ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
:good:
I guess you are not fond of ChNN.
I've been fond of his teaching, with this as a notable exception. Does one have to eat meat to be his student?
No, but one has to drop ALL judgemental attitudes to those who do.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:08 pm

ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
:good:
I guess you are not fond of ChNN.
I've been fond of his teaching, with this as a notable exception. Does one have to eat meat to be his student?
No, but you will have to hear him endlessly chastise practitioners who refuse to eat meat for this or that reason as people who have "miserable" compassion.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

MiphamFan
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by MiphamFan » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:09 pm

Don't bother him with emails about vegetarianism.

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Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:10 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Don't bother him with emails about vegetarianism.

Most def
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Tiago Simões
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Tiago Simões » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:36 pm

ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
:good:
I guess you are not fond of ChNN.
I've been fond of his teaching, with this as a notable exception. Does one have to eat meat to be his student?
So you are implying that one of his views is incorrect?
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:10 pm

I imagine though, that it would be hard to be his student if you see him as directly responsible for killing animals due to his diet.

One of the teachers I follow advocates vegetarianism, but he is reasonable about it, advocating reduction of consumption, health benefits form eating less meat, being aware and saying prayers for the animal when you do eat meat etc. If he was as black and white as some vegetarians and vegans I know, I would not be able to follow him I don't think. As it is, I can appreciate his point of view and agree with his advocacy of consuming less meat, even if I'm unconcerned with people's diets overall.

Maybe you can do similar with ChNN?
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

Tiago Simões
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Tiago Simões » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:56 pm

Vegetarian teachings have a very specific cultural and contextual importance. Who here doesn't know about the story of the fanatic vegan student and his teacher, who after teaching on the benefits of vegetarianism, threw a peace of meat at his face?

On the other hand, here in Portugal theres something called "a matança do porco", which translates to "the slaughter of the pig", where a group of people come together and ... well... kill and eat a pig. This is also the country that sees bull fighting as an art.... Vegetarian teachings sound appealing don't they?
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

ThoroughlyCutting
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by ThoroughlyCutting » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:15 pm

tiagolps wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
I guess you are not fond of ChNN.
I've been fond of his teaching, with this as a notable exception. Does one have to eat meat to be his student?
So you are implying that one of his views is incorrect?
I'm saying that I'm going to "err" on the side of caution. As I don't much care for being berated during teachings for living a lifestyle that is consonant with the teachings of other lamas that I admire and my own feelings on the matter, I'm going to give thanks for the teachings and I've received from ChNN, and bow out. Whether or not his view on the matter is correct or incorrect is certainly not for me to say, but it's not right for me.
"I may attain the Great Perfection in this lifetime, but if not, at least I'll have been happy! Wah!" ~ Patrul Rinpoche

Tiago Simões
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Tiago Simões » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:40 pm

ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
I've been fond of his teaching, with this as a notable exception. Does one have to eat meat to be his student?
So you are implying that one of his views is incorrect?
I'm saying that I'm going to "err" on the side of caution. As I don't much care for being berated during teachings for living a lifestyle that is consonant with the teachings of other lamas that I admire and my own feelings on the matter, I'm going to give thanks for the teachings and I've received from ChNN, and bow out. Whether or not his view on the matter is correct or incorrect is certainly not for me to say, but it's not right for me.
Whos berating you?
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

ThoroughlyCutting
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by ThoroughlyCutting » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:01 am

tiagolps wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
So you are implying that one of his views is incorrect?
I'm saying that I'm going to "err" on the side of caution. As I don't much care for being berated during teachings for living a lifestyle that is consonant with the teachings of other lamas that I admire and my own feelings on the matter, I'm going to give thanks for the teachings and I've received from ChNN, and bow out. Whether or not his view on the matter is correct or incorrect is certainly not for me to say, but it's not right for me.
Whos berating you?
ChNN. At least once per teaching I've found that Namkhai Norbu endorses eating meat, and as Malcolm mentioned, also chastised practitioners like me who refuse to do so, hence my post above.
"I may attain the Great Perfection in this lifetime, but if not, at least I'll have been happy! Wah!" ~ Patrul Rinpoche

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:28 am

ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
I've been fond of his teaching, with this as a notable exception. Does one have to eat meat to be his student?
So you are implying that one of his views is incorrect?
I'm saying that I'm going to "err" on the side of caution. As I don't much care for being berated during teachings for living a lifestyle that is consonant with the teachings of other lamas that I admire and my own feelings on the matter, I'm going to give thanks for the teachings and I've received from ChNN, and bow out. Whether or not his view on the matter is correct or incorrect is certainly not for me to say, but it's not right for me.

Apparently it is for you to say though, some of your first engagement on the forum has been posts about the ethical centrality of a vegetarian diet...
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:35 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
So you are implying that one of his views is incorrect?
I'm saying that I'm going to "err" on the side of caution. As I don't much care for being berated during teachings for living a lifestyle that is consonant with the teachings of other lamas that I admire and my own feelings on the matter, I'm going to give thanks for the teachings and I've received from ChNN, and bow out. Whether or not his view on the matter is correct or incorrect is certainly not for me to say, but it's not right for me.

Apparently it is for you to say though, some of your first engagement on the forum has been posts about the ethical centrality of a vegetarian diet...
Yes, I seem to recall something about "ghoulish behaviour", or maybe it was "goulash behaviour". Anyway, it seemed quite definitive.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:45 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
I'm saying that I'm going to "err" on the side of caution. As I don't much care for being berated during teachings for living a lifestyle that is consonant with the teachings of other lamas that I admire and my own feelings on the matter, I'm going to give thanks for the teachings and I've received from ChNN, and bow out. Whether or not his view on the matter is correct or incorrect is certainly not for me to say, but it's not right for me.

Apparently it is for you to say though, some of your first engagement on the forum has been posts about the ethical centrality of a vegetarian diet...
Yes, I seem to recall something about "ghoulish behaviour", or maybe it was "goulash behaviour". Anyway, it seemed quite definitive.
Har har. Naw, he was polite and reasonable, just saying, such an ardent position about vegetarianism is gonna naturally limit who you can take teachings from...or so it seems.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

Tiago Simões
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:59 am

ThoroughlyCutting wrote:ChNN. At least once per teaching I've found that Namkhai Norbu endorses eating meat, and as Malcolm mentioned, also chastised practitioners like me who refuse to do so, hence my post above.
So did the buddha himself.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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Mr. G
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Mr. G » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:46 am

  • Devadatta next plots discord among the monks by proposing that the Buddha mandate five austere disciplines for all recluses. These five are as follows:

    1. forest dwelling
    2. alms begging
    3. the wearing of only refuse-rag robes
    4. living at the foot of a tree
    5. not eating meat or fish

    All of these disciplines, Devadatta suggests, should be followed “for as long as
    life lasts.”

    The Buddha’s response is again sharp:

    Enough, Devadatta. . . . Whoever wishes, let him be a forest-dweller;
    whoever wishes, let him stay in the neighbourhood of a village; whoever
    wishes, let him be a beggar for alms; whoever wishes, let him accept an invitation;
    whoever wishes, let him be a rag-robe wearer; whoever wishes,
    let him accept a householder’s robes. For eight months, Devadatta, lodging
    at the root of a tree is permitted by me. Fish and flesh are pure in respect
    of three points: if they are not seen, heard or suspected (to have
    been killed on purpose for him
    )


    - Daniel Boucher - Bodhisattvas of the Forest and the Formation of the Mahâyâna
  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu

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Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:09 pm

ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
I'm saying that I'm going to "err" on the side of caution. As I don't much care for being berated during teachings for living a lifestyle that is consonant with the teachings of other lamas that I admire and my own feelings on the matter, I'm going to give thanks for the teachings and I've received from ChNN, and bow out. Whether or not his view on the matter is correct or incorrect is certainly not for me to say, but it's not right for me.
Whos berating you?
ChNN. At least once per teaching I've found that Namkhai Norbu endorses eating meat, and as Malcolm mentioned, also chastised practitioners like me who refuse to do so, hence my post above.
You have to understand one critical point: ChNN states that if, for example, you are a common Mahāyāna practitioner, then of course you must be a vegetarian. But if you are a Vajrayāna practitioner, than you have methods available to you to benefit sentient beings which wind up on your plate, either as a byproduct of agriculture, or as a consequence of slaughter. To refuse to use those methods and prefer a lower sutrayāna view makes your compassion "miserable."

The idea that you can only eat meat if you have the capacity to transfer the animal's consciousness to a buddhafield is a superstition.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Adamantine
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Adamantine » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:24 am

Malcolm wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
Whos berating you?
ChNN. At least once per teaching I've found that Namkhai Norbu endorses eating meat, and as Malcolm mentioned, also chastised practitioners like me who refuse to do so, hence my post above.
You have to understand one critical point: ChNN states that if, for example, you are a common Mahāyāna practitioner, then of course you must be a vegetarian. But if you are a Vajrayāna practitioner, than you have methods available to you to benefit sentient beings which wind up on your plate, either as a byproduct of agriculture, or as a consequence of slaughter. To refuse to use those methods and prefer a lower sutrayāna view makes your compassion "miserable."

The idea that you can only eat meat if you have the capacity to transfer the animal's consciousness to a buddhafield is a superstition.
To be fair though Malcolm, you've also changed your views on this since I've known you, and it can be a hard thing to accept on faith alone.
There are certainly strict vegetarian Vajrayana teachers out there too. Tulku Pema Wangyal Rinpoche is strictly vegan for instance and encourages this among all the students in Dordogne and in the three year retreat for instance. Patrul Rinpoche was quite strict in this regard, and many of his lineage disciples, including those alive today. So it is not as if there are no Vajrayana teachers and practitioners who keep a vegetarian diet and ethic and believe it to correspond with correct understanding.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Adamantine
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Adamantine » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:55 am

ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
ThoroughlyCutting wrote:
I've been fond of his teaching, with this as a notable exception. Does one have to eat meat to be his student?
So you are implying that one of his views is incorrect?
I'm saying that I'm going to "err" on the side of caution. As I don't much care for being berated during teachings for living a lifestyle that is consonant with the teachings of other lamas that I admire and my own feelings on the matter, I'm going to give thanks for the teachings and I've received from ChNN, and bow out. Whether or not his view on the matter is correct or incorrect is certainly not for me to say, but it's not right for me.
Please understand that it's a never a good idea to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even if ChNN might reference this once during a teaching cycle that lasts a week, it is hardly the most important thing he is transmitting. If you can try to maintain some pure vision for now, and keep your connection with Guru yoga, give some space to this dietary question and don't make it a central thing. It's really not the main point.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

florin
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by florin » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:16 pm

ThoroughlyCutting wrote: I'm going to give thanks for the teachings and I've received from ChNN, and bow out.
You are doing nothing wrong.
We are all doing the same, following teachings according to our own limitations.

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Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu and Vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:44 pm

Adamantine wrote:
To be fair though Malcolm, you've also changed your views on this since I've known you, and it can be a hard thing to accept on faith alone.
Indeed. I held this point of view, then became disturbed by industrial abattoirs and reversed my point of view. I then regained my equanimity, and found a deeper perspective.
So it is not as if there are no Vajrayana teachers and practitioners who keep a vegetarian diet and ethic and believe it to correspond with correct understanding.
If people choose to avoid animal protein in their diets for health reasons, this is fine. If people think it is unethical to kill animals for food, well, they are right, it is unethical by any Dharma standard. Patrul Rinpoche was responding to the fact that in Tibet, Tibetan monasteries were deeply engaged in ordering animals slaughtered for provisions. If you read his texts, you will see that in general he taught to avoid eating meat, but he saved his most cutting remarks for monastics.

That said, if you want to be a healthy vegetarian, learn to cook Ayurvedically.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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