Semen

Malcolm
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Re: Semen

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote:
climb-up wrote:
tingdzin wrote:Why is this is the Dzogchen forum? IMO the general Tibetan Buddhist forum would be better.
I can't remember where, but I thought that ChNN in one of his books said precisely what Malcolm said above, but said that it was specifically a dzogchen understanding.
...I can't remember which book. I'll try to check.
Well, the whole ojas thing is Indian rather than Dzogchen, and seminal retention is also practiced by Taoists, among others.
In Tibetan, ojas is translated a mdangs. This fluid is discussed in the four medicine tantras, specifically in the explanatory tantra, in the chapter on physiology, chapter 5:.
  • The metabolic heat of each individual tissue ripens the extract. The extract travels the path of the liver in nine channels that draw the extract from the stomach, changing into blood in the location of the liver; flesh from blood; from flesh changing into fat; from fat changing into bone; from bone changing into marrow; from marrow changing into semen (khu ba, śukra).

    Their impure part is the stomach phlegm, bile, sebum, grease, teeth and nails, oil of the pores and the anus, reproductive fluid (sa bon).

    The final state of the semen tissue (khu ba khams, śukra dhātu) is the supreme life-sustaining fluid (mdangs, ojas), located in the heart, pervading the entire body, and causes longevity, radiance, and brilliance.
jkarlins
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Re: Semen

Post by jkarlins »

Thanks for this discussion! I wonder about this. I'd consider myself a very minimal sadhana practitioner, not a bigtime yogi. How important is it to retain semen? I don't want to get gross, but I do notice my practice gets diffuse and weak if I :twothumbsup: Less so when I spend time with my wife. Sorry for the euphemisms, I'm pretty direct in person, but I don't want to offend anyone or be gross online.

Just wondering how important it is to retain as a basic sort of meditator, not doing 6 yogas, Dzogchen, anything like that. And I know I should ask my teacher, but I'm a little uncomfortable asking him.
Malcolm
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Re: Semen

Post by Malcolm »

jkarlins wrote:Thanks for this discussion! I wonder about this. I'd consider myself a very minimal sadhana practitioner, not a bigtime yogi. How important is it to retain semen? I don't want to get gross, but I do notice my practice gets diffuse and weak if I :twothumbsup: Less so when I spend time with my wife. Sorry for the euphemisms, I'm pretty direct in person, but I don't want to offend anyone or be gross online.

Just wondering how important it is to retain as a basic sort of meditator, not doing 6 yogas, Dzogchen, anything like that. And I know I should ask my teacher, but I'm a little uncomfortable asking him.
Not important at all if your diet is rich enough in fat and oil and you are not doing tummo, karmamudra, or chulen practice.
jkarlins
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Re: Semen

Post by jkarlins »

Thanks. No, I don't do those practices, and I eat plenty of fat!
tingdzin
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Re: Semen

Post by tingdzin »

Yes, Malcolm is right in that unless you're engaged in some sort of special practice, there's no need to worry about it too much, especially if you're young. If you're interested in the less exalted but beneficial effects that can arise from retention, you could look at the Taoist manuals.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Semen

Post by jet.urgyen »

Lingpupa wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:you do guru amitayus, and learn
Explain?
i have ignored you, i apollogize
i don't know very well how to explain this,
that's why i'm a bit reluctant to talk
that's all,

in my experience

through Guru Amitayus and Padmanreteshvari we can learn how energies are coordinated
for long life an prosperity, so our fluids and emotions are then well "organized"
and they give us problems no more
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Rinchen Samphel
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Re: Semen

Post by Rinchen Samphel »

jkarlins wrote: How important is it to retain semen? I don't want to get gross, but I do notice my practice gets diffuse and weak if I :twothumbsup:

And I know I should ask my teacher, but I'm a little uncomfortable asking him.

I wanted to comment and say I have the exact same experiance.

If you feel uncomfortable asking your teacher, just ask a senior student you're comfortable with. At the end of the day though, I don't think you should be uncomfortable asking your teacher.
jkarlins
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Re: Semen

Post by jkarlins »

Both valid points.

I will probably ask a senior student at some point, and find a way to broach the subject with my teacher.He's generally very approachable and spends a good deal of time discussing things with us, and we share many meals together.

Jake
pael
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Re: Semen

Post by pael »

It says in Sky Dancer: The Secret Life and Songs of Lady Yeshe Tsogyel, page [42]:
If there is leakage of bodhichitta, the Buddha Unchanging Light is slain, and since there is no superior presence to whom such a crime can be acknowledged and thus atoned, such karma as that of the Avichi Hell results.
I think it speaks semen. In which initiation this is related? Which of 9 yanas? Is this so hopeless?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering
Malcolm
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Re: Semen

Post by Malcolm »

pael wrote:It says in Sky Dancer: The Secret Life and Songs of Lady Yeshe Tsogyel, page [42]:
If there is leakage of bodhichitta, the Buddha Unchanging Light is slain, and since there is no superior presence to whom such a crime can be acknowledged and thus atoned, such karma as that of the Avichi Hell results.
I think it speaks semen. In which initiation this is related? Which of 9 yanas? Is this so hopeless?
No, it refers to the refined essence, which is called "ojas."

Semen is something that is a waste product.
pael
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Re: Semen

Post by pael »

Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:It says in Sky Dancer: The Secret Life and Songs of Lady Yeshe Tsogyel, page [42]:
If there is leakage of bodhichitta, the Buddha Unchanging Light is slain, and since there is no superior presence to whom such a crime can be acknowledged and thus atoned, such karma as that of the Avichi Hell results.
I think it speaks semen. In which initiation this is related? Which of 9 yanas? Is this so hopeless?
No, it refers to the refined essence, which is called "ojas."

Semen is something that is a waste product.
What is ojas? How to know have I losed/leaked it?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering
Malcolm
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Re: Semen

Post by Malcolm »

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:It says in Sky Dancer: The Secret Life and Songs of Lady Yeshe Tsogyel, page [42]: I think it speaks semen. In which initiation this is related? Which of 9 yanas? Is this so hopeless?
No, it refers to the refined essence, which is called "ojas."

Semen is something that is a waste product.
What is ojas? How to know have I losed/leaked it?
You would only leak/lose it you had a very poor diet.
tingdzin
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Re: Semen

Post by tingdzin »

Without wanting to violate samaya, my teachers have said that there are many many ways to lose thigle (not always the same as ojas perhaps),including but not limited to sexual leakage. But don't worry about it unless you are doing these practices and have instruction on them from a qualified and experienced teacher.
pael
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Re: Semen

Post by pael »

Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
No, it refers to the refined essence, which is called "ojas."

Semen is something that is a waste product.
What is ojas? How to know have I losed/leaked it?
You would only leak/lose it you had a very poor diet.
I eat basically meat products with potato or rice. I eat calcium pill with D vitamin. I have diagnosis for Malnutrition. I have underweight. I fear I have losed ojas. I am not practicing with body/sexual yoga. 1.Can I still attain Buddhahood? 2. Does losing ojas destroy ability to attain Buddhahood?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering
tingdzin
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Re: Semen

Post by tingdzin »

This is not something you have to obsess about, trust me. Take care of your health, eat right, and then find a qualified master to ask about these things.
User avatar
climb-up
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Re: Semen

Post by climb-up »

Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
No, it refers to the refined essence, which is called "ojas."

Semen is something that is a waste product.
What is ojas? How to know have I losed/leaked it?
You would only leak/lose it you had a very poor diet.
Okay, I am (genuinely) not trying to be argumentative, but I am very curious. I eat a vegan diet, but not a poor diet at all (far better than most meat-eaters in the USA) and I exercise and do yoga regularly. According to Tibetan medicine am I more at risk to loose ojas than someone who is not vegan, but lives on KFC and cupcakes and doesn't exercise? (I won't be offended, genuinely curious).

Also curious. In traditional Chinese medicine there is an idea about frequency of ejaculation. I think, for example, a 20 year old shouldn't ejaculate more than once a day or two, a thirty year old maybe once every 7 or 10 days. (I'm might be wrong about the numbers, but that's the idea).
Is there anything comparable in Tibetan medicine? Would excess ejaculation eventually lead to ojas loss?
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
Jyotish
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Re: Semen

Post by Jyotish »

Malcolm wrote:
tingdzin wrote:
climb-up wrote:
I can't remember where, but I thought that ChNN in one of his books said precisely what Malcolm said above, but said that it was specifically a dzogchen understanding.
...I can't remember which book. I'll try to check.
Well, the whole ojas thing is Indian rather than Dzogchen, and seminal retention is also practiced by Taoists, among others.
In Tibetan, ojas is translated a mdangs. This fluid is discussed in the four medicine tantras, specifically in the explanatory tantra, in the chapter on physiology, chapter 5:.
  • The metabolic heat of each individual tissue ripens the extract. The extract travels the path of the liver in nine channels that draw the extract from the stomach, changing into blood in the location of the liver; flesh from blood; from flesh changing into fat; from fat changing into bone; from bone changing into marrow; from marrow changing into semen (khu ba, śukra).

    Their impure part is the stomach phlegm, bile, sebum, grease, teeth and nails, oil of the pores and the anus, reproductive fluid (sa bon).

    The final state of the semen tissue (khu ba khams, śukra dhātu) is the supreme life-sustaining fluid (mdangs, ojas), located in the heart, pervading the entire body, and causes longevity, radiance, and brilliance.

Clearly the tibetan medicine treats semen as a waste product. Malcolm, could you clarify if this understanding is true in ayurvedic texts too or do they differ in this regard? If the ayurveda also agree with Tibetan view then clearly ayurveda practitioners somehow misunderstood the text.

Also do you find it surprising that TCM has different view than Tibetan in that they just say no no to semen loss?
Thank you!
tingdzin
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Re: Semen

Post by tingdzin »

Jyotish wrote:Clearly the tibetan medicine treats semen as a waste product.
This does not follow from the quote you cite.
Jyotish wrote:Their impure part is the stomach phlegm, bile, sebum, grease, teeth and nails, oil of the pores and the anus, reproductive fluid (sa bon).
One reason the teachings on thigle are (or were formerly) kept secret is because of reductionist understandings of the relevant vocabulary that can lead to serious errors in practice.
Malcolm
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Re: Semen

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote:
Jyotish wrote:Clearly the tibetan medicine treats semen as a waste product.
This does not follow from the quote you cite.
Jyotish wrote:Their impure part is the stomach phlegm, bile, sebum, grease, teeth and nails, oil of the pores and the anus, reproductive fluid (sa bon).
One reason the teachings on thigle are (or were formerly) kept secret is because of reductionist understandings of the relevant vocabulary that can lead to serious errors in practice.
Since semen, the reproductive fluid, is instrumental in male bliss, it is supposed to be conserved if one is doing completion stage practice. It is however still a waste product of digestion. Ojas, mdangs, is more important than semen.
tingdzin
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Re: Semen

Post by tingdzin »

Right, good clarification.
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