Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Malcolm
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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:03 pm

Adamantine wrote:And we are off topic again sort of-- the point isn't keeping things secret it's about authentic transmission. Shri Singha didn't just write it down and publish it widely in Tibet-- he gave an oral transmission to Vairotsana until both of them were satisfied with his understanding, then he left to return to Tibet to bring the teachings there, and transmit them from master to disciple. You can read the different lineages of Dzogchen and how they were transmitted to whom and how they were carried forth in the History of the Nyingma book of HH Dudjom Rinpoche. Nowhere does it say "and then this disciple never met a human master but found a text in a bookstore and achieved full realization after reading it over and over again". It is through the master disciple relationship that the teaching has always been transmitted- not through books - and this is what ChNN teaches and what you yourself affirmed at the beginning of the thread.
I was addressing the intent of the story you raised. The purpose of Śrī Siṃha's teaching Dzogchen in such a ridiculous fashion had nothing to do with generally keeping Dzogchen teachings secret, it had to do with fooling the Indian King and Panditas so Vairocana could return with Dzogchen teachings Tibet.

Everything in Buddhadharma needs to transmitted from master to disciple, no exceptions, even sūtra knowledge.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Garudavista
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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Garudavista » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:05 pm

Shri Singha didn't just write it down and publish it widely in Tibet--
Since Shri Singha lived in the 8th century and (I'm assuming) woodblock printing was not easily accessible in Tibet at the time (and the printing press had not yet been invented), wouldn't it have been nearly impossible for him to publish anything widely in Tibet?

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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by MalaBeads » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:50 pm

[quote="Adamantine"]With regards to the OP quote, it is no secret that many Lamas have different styles of transmission based on their own understanding and how they feel the teachings will root the most deeply and effectively in their students hearts.
[quote]

Malcolm,

I remember you explaining something quite similar to us on e-sangha. The word I remember you using at that time was "fiefdom" though. How in old tibet, each lama had their own fiefdom. This stayed with me because I often thought about how much of a transition they all had to make, coming out of Tibet as they did. Lama Chime often said that he went directly from living in the eighth century to living in the twentieth century.

There are many approaches to practices. Why? Because everyone is different and the fact that everyone is different is not a trivial matter.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

Malcolm
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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:54 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
Adamantine wrote:With regards to the OP quote, it is no secret that many Lamas have different styles of transmission based on their own understanding and how they feel the teachings will root the most deeply and effectively in their students hearts.

Malcolm,

I remember you explaining something quite similar to us on e-sangha. The word I remember you using at that time was "fiefdom" though. How in old tibet, each lama had their own fiefdom. This stayed with me because I often thought about how much of a transition they all had to make, coming out of Tibet as they did. Lama Chime often said that he went directly from living in the eighth century to living in the twentieth century.

There are many approaches to practices. Why? Because everyone is different and the fact that everyone is different is not a trivial matter.
No doubt, but that was not the point I was addressing. It is however its own point. Glad I belong the kingdom of ChNN.

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Adamantine
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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Adamantine » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:16 am

Malcolm wrote:
I was addressing the intent of the story you raised. The purpose of Śrī Siṃha's teaching Dzogchen in such a ridiculous fashion had nothing to do with generally keeping Dzogchen teachings secret, it had to do with fooling the Indian King and Panditas so Vairocana could return with Dzogchen teachings Tibet.

Everything in Buddhadharma needs to transmitted from master to disciple, no exceptions, even sūtra knowledge.
I'm sure you're right about the intent of that story but my intent in mentioning it was just as one example that throughout the history of Dzogchen transmission there's been many reasons for it to be kept more undercover, whether it is to avoid jealousy, orthodoxy, ridicule or misunderstanding, or all of the above, or a plethora of other potential reasons. It's almost a Dzogchen convention. And it's true that in many ways it is self-secret, but you yourself said
Malcolm wrote:I concur that there are many people who get themselves into trouble by reading books for which they do not have the transmission.
Malcolm wrote:avoid reading about tögal until you have received tögal instructions.
Malcolm wrote:it really is better to have the transmission for texts you want to read
Malcolm wrote:It is better to have the transmission for what you want to read.
So it seems we are both agreeing with Shenphen Rinpoche's points, only one or two people here ridiculed them and you weren't one of them. . .
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Adamantine » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:21 am

Malcolm wrote:Glad I belong the kingdom of ChNN.
I hope that all of us studying and practicing in a Dzogchen lineage can consider ourselves belonging to the kingdom of Kuntuzangpo/mo. Then things might appear a little less tribal. :yinyang: :cheers: :smile:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Ivo » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:47 am

Adamantine wrote: I hope that all of us studying and practicing in a Dzogchen lineage can consider ourselves belonging to the kingdom of Kuntuzangpo/mo. Then things might appear a little less tribal. :yinyang: :cheers: :smile:
Very interesting thought! :smile:

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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:18 pm

From http://www.tersar.org/:
Taking a humble position, rich with the treasure of contentment,
Free from the binds of the eight worldly concerns,
Firm and strong-hearted in practice,
Receiving the Guru’s blessing, realization becomes equal to space.
May we attain the Kingdom of Kuntuzangpo.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Malcolm
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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:32 pm

Adamantine wrote:
I'm sure you're right about the intent of that story but my intent in mentioning it was just as one example that throughout the history of Dzogchen transmission there's been many reasons for it to be kept more undercover, whether it is to avoid jealousy, orthodoxy, ridicule or misunderstanding, or all of the above, or a plethora of other potential reasons.
Dzogchen teachings are not secret, they are for everyone, if they are interested. The way you demonstrated your interest is by seeking out transmission.

When we say Dzogchen teachings are "secret", it does mean they are secret in the sense of a classified document which only people with proper clearance can read — though certainly this is a prevailing attitude evinced by the plethora of "restricted books." Dzogchen teachings are secret because their meaning is obscure to those who still are involved with the vehicles of cause and result. This is the real sense of secrecy in Dzogchen teachings.

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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:33 pm

Adamantine wrote:
So it seems we are both agreeing with Shenphen Rinpoche's points, only one or two people here ridiculed them and you weren't one of them. . .
I agree that Dzogchen can be misunderstood, but refusing to discuss it does not lend to clarity.

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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by narraboth » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:01 pm

I think this topic has been discussed last year or earlier?
I posted this story before, I will post again.

Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche's biography, Brilliant Moon, has different translations. In Taiwanese publication, it contains more than the original as several important lamas' interviews were included. One of them is an interview with Namkhei Nyingpo Rinpoche, who is a close disciple of Khyentse Rinpoche. He told a story:
As people know, HHDL received Nyingma teaching from Khyentse Rinpoche, including important Dzogchen teachings. One day, HHDL asked Khyentse Rinpoche: 'I think people should be able to understand Dzogchen by reading Dzogchen books?' Khyentse Rinpoche replied: 'What you said is correct. If people pray to guru, and read Dzogchen book slowly, it is possible to understand Dzogchen this way.' So HHDL did, and at the night HHDL had a dream, in which Kyabje Khyentse Rinpoche together with his other guru appeared, and HH gained Dzogchen realisation. HH confirmed this with Khyentse Rinpoche the next day.

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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by smcj » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:04 pm

Dzogchen teachings are secret because their meaning is obscure to those who still are involved with the vehicles of cause and result.
That's worded a little strangely. It implies that someone who is not involved with the first 8 yanas, such as a secular person, will have an advantage over a Dharma practitioner in understanding Dzogchen. I'm going to guess that is not what you meant.

Of all the teachings of the Buddha, Dzogchen/Mahamudra is most prone to misunderstanding because of the ease with which it can be reduced to something pedestrian. It is the perfect example of the ChNN's quote:
A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:53 pm

smcj wrote:
Dzogchen teachings are secret because their meaning is obscure to those who still are involved with the vehicles of cause and result.
That's worded a little strangely. It implies that someone who is not involved with the first 8 yanas, such as a secular person, will have an advantage over a Dharma practitioner in understanding Dzogchen. I'm going to guess that is not what you meant.
That can in fact be the case.
Of all the teachings of the Buddha, Dzogchen/Mahamudra is most prone to misunderstanding because of the ease with which it can be reduced to something pedestrian. It is the perfect example of the ChNN's quote:
A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits.
Actually, what ChNN here is saying is that vehicles of cause and result place limitations on the possibility of liberation because of their limitations.

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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by smcj » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:05 pm

A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits.
Actually, what ChNN here is saying is that vehicles of cause and result place limitations on the possibility of liberation because of their limitations.
The quote is from Dzogchen and Zen p.16. In context the point he is making is that Dzogchen does not actually belong to a given tradition as such. However he has worded it into a wider context, hence my willingness to quote it in a variety of places.

A traditional rendering of the same idea is the analogy of the frog at the bottom of a well trying to explore the ocean without leaving his well. The well is our ignorance, and we try to fit the greatness of the teachings into the confines of our unawareness. But that is awkward. I like the succinct phrasing ChNN uses better.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Paul » Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
Dzogchen teachings are secret because their meaning is obscure to those who still are involved with the vehicles of cause and result.
That's worded a little strangely. It implies that someone who is not involved with the first 8 yanas, such as a secular person, will have an advantage over a Dharma practitioner in understanding Dzogchen. I'm going to guess that is not what you meant.
That can in fact be the case.
I think it's 100% true. People can make the most amazing ornate cages out of dharma.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

smcj
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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by smcj » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:08 pm

I think it's 100% true. People can make the most amazing ornate cages out of dharma.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that none of my teachers would agree with that statement. The issue never arose, so I can't say for sure, but none have ever shown the slightest sympathy to that kind of idea.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:12 pm

smcj wrote:
I think it's 100% true. People can make the most amazing ornate cages out of dharma.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that none of my teachers would agree with that statement. The issue never arose, so I can't say for sure, but none have ever shown the slightest sympathy to that kind of idea.
None of your teachers are teachers of Dzogchen.

smcj
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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by smcj » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
I think it's 100% true. People can make the most amazing ornate cages out of dharma.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that none of my teachers would agree with that statement. The issue never arose, so I can't say for sure, but none have ever shown the slightest sympathy to that kind of idea.
None of your teachers are teachers of Dzogchen.
No, actually I've had teachers that teach Dzogchen, quite fluently in fact. That doesn't make me a Dzogchen student, as I've said elsewhere, but they certainly embodied it..
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

florin
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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by florin » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:28 pm

Is Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche considered a dzogchen teacher ?

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Re: Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Books

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:36 pm

Never mind

:toilet:
Last edited by MiphamFan on Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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