Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Andrew David Boyle
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:41 pm

Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Andrew David Boyle » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:51 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:32 pm


That is not Dzogchen view at all. Not even slightly.
If I may inquire, although that isn't the Dzogchen view according to you, it does look like the general Yogācāra view.

Perhaps a formal thread, or at the very least a clarification in-thread, on what separates them would be in order?
Our friend ADB has not clarified whether this consciousness is personal, as in Yogacāra, or transpersonal as in Advaita. Even so, the view of Yogācāra is not the view of Dzogchen, which view Dzogchen far surpasses, just as the sun outshines a candle.
It is the view of someone who has directly perceived their Buddha Nature. There is no higher realisation.
As Mooji says: 'There is no higher realisation in the human kingdom.' The compassion of one who has realised their Buddha Nature
does not shine brighter than the compassion of another who has realised their Buddha Nature.

As I said in other posts the experiences of Mooji and the Dzogchen masters are described almost the same word for word.
For me, they are on the same level of realisation.

Also bear in mind that some Tantric Prasangikas also accept the Chittamatrin view. The truth is somewhere
in between but it is beyond words.

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9353
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by DGA » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:30 pm

Andrew David Boyle wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:15 pm

Mooji [Advaita/ Zen master who I am familiar with] says all phenomena are manifestations of consciousness and the same nature as consciousness. The consciousness he is referring to is the clear light mind or Buddha Nature. This view is accepted by some Tantric Prsangikas and is almost indistinguishable from the standard Tantric Prasangika view. In summary, they are very, very similar.
what's an "Advaita/Zen master," and how does one become one? What's "Advaita/Zen"?

is this the Mooji in question?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooji

Andrew David Boyle
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:41 pm

Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Andrew David Boyle » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:04 pm

DGA wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:30 pm
Andrew David Boyle wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:15 pm

Mooji [Advaita/ Zen master who I am familiar with] says all phenomena are manifestations of consciousness and the same nature as consciousness. The consciousness he is referring to is the clear light mind or Buddha Nature. This view is accepted by some Tantric Prsangikas and is almost indistinguishable from the standard Tantric Prasangika view. In summary, they are very, very similar.
what's an "Advaita/Zen master," and how does one become one? What's "Advaita/Zen"?

is this the Mooji in question?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooji
I think it is anew category!

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17682
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:08 pm

Andrew David Boyle wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:15 pm
Mahamudra says that all phenomena are manifestations of bliss and emptiness. The mind of clear light, which is the nature of bliss, mixes inseperably with emptiness, like water mixing with water. All phenomena are seen by the yogi to arise from this union of the clear light and emptiness.

Mooji [Advaita/ Zen master who I am familiar with] says all phenomena are manifestations of consciousness and the same nature as consciousness. The consciousness he is referring to is the clear light mind or Buddha Nature. This view is accepted by some Tantric Prsangikas and is almost indistinguishable from the standard Tantric Prasangika view. In summary, they are very, very similar.
Your grasp of Mahamudra is incomplete and that is why you confound the views.

Mahamudra is not a state of consciousness. Buddha Nature is not a state of consciousness. They are not phenomena and they do not give rise to phenomena.

But your confusion obviously arises from your attempt to mix Zen, Advaita, Tantra and Prasangika. You end up creating something completely indigestible.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28316
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:28 pm

Andrew David Boyle wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:51 pm

Our friend ADB has not clarified whether this consciousness is personal, as in Yogacāra, or transpersonal as in Advaita. Even so, the view of Yogācāra is not the view of Dzogchen, which view Dzogchen far surpasses, just as the sun outshines a candle.
It is the view of someone who has directly perceived their Buddha Nature. There is no higher realisation.
you still have not clarified whether this is Self Mooji keeps talking about is personal or transpersonal.

In any case, having looked at what he says, as far as I can tell is it just standard Self view of Advaita, so not Dzogchen.

Buddhanature misunderstood is just the same as the tīrthika view of self.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9353
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by DGA » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:12 pm

Andrew David Boyle wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:04 pm
DGA wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:30 pm
Andrew David Boyle wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:15 pm

Mooji [Advaita/ Zen master who I am familiar with] says all phenomena are manifestations of consciousness and the same nature as consciousness. The consciousness he is referring to is the clear light mind or Buddha Nature. This view is accepted by some Tantric Prsangikas and is almost indistinguishable from the standard Tantric Prasangika view. In summary, they are very, very similar.
what's an "Advaita/Zen master," and how does one become one? What's "Advaita/Zen"?

is this the Mooji in question?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooji
I think it is anew category!
a new category of what? put differently: what does this category Advaita/Zen contain, and what makes it new or distinctive?

are you the inventor of this category?

fckw
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 am

Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by fckw » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:22 pm

Advaita Zen is closely related to both Christian Tantra and Jewish Islam.

User avatar
Wayfarer
Global Moderator
Posts: 4095
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:28 pm

This is a pretty good Wikipedia article on ‘neo-Advaita’. I think it makes clear that most talk about ‘Advaita’ is by those who have encountered via the global ‘neo-Advaita’ movement which has become diffused throughout Western culture.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:12 pm

fckw wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:22 pm
Advaita Zen is closely related to both Christian Tantra and Jewish Islam.
:good:
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

Aku
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:54 pm

Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Aku » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm

williamlam wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:46 pm
In Dzogchen, the goal seems to be to uncover ones Primodial Awareness. Is this state of Primodial Awareness, the quality of luminous emptiness, the same as the Non-Duality of True Self/Pure Witness as described by Advaita Vedanta?

To elaborate further, most Advaita and Neo-Advaita teachings seem to be focussed on uncovering a "fundamental awareness" that is not thought and not the mind... a depersonalised and universal 'knowing' that they will describe as the ocean behind the wave. This seems similar to what Dzgchen talks about.

Are there subtle differences in the non-dual states described in Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta.

There also seem to be a theory that the uniqueness of Buddhism is that it attempt to even deconstruct this True Self/Pure Witness, with the insight and realization of 'Emptiness'.

So is realizing 'Primodal Awareness' Dzogchen's endgame? And is this Primodial Awareness similiar to Advaita's True Self/Pure Witness?

...
In fact there is no endgame. It's just that for the true, persistent practitioners there is much less meaningless suffering.
The Realisation of Primordial Awareness is Being Beyond All Concepts.
That True Self is Sustaining Bright Pure Light.
The realisation of Emptiness comes in several degrees/steps for the bodhisattvas and these are named bhumis. These grounds can be thought of as discovering the levels of the mind followed by the transformation of the body. It begins by Cleansing Joy and passes through Total Bliss and so on.
Non-Duality is perceiving the World and the Ego as not separated.

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: climb-up, Josef, O_156, Tata1 and 68 guests