False/Wrong View in Dzogchen

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AilurusFulgens
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:11 pm

False/Wrong View in Dzogchen

Post by AilurusFulgens » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:05 pm

The reason why I have been opening a new topic is, because of a recent exchange I had with an acquaintance of mine, who is an Advaitin and at the same time practices Dzogchen.

I have a very odd feeling with the whole arrangement; especially with his argumentation that lines between Buddhism and Hinduism are not so clear-cut as it may appear and that Buddhism anyway adopted many texts and teachings from Hinduism. One example he gives is the fire-ritual or homa (although I do not understand what relevance does this have for Dzogchen). He also admits that Hinduism in turn took over some Buddhist elements.

Still, it all sounds very strange.

I would like to request the participants in this discussion to focus strictly on the false view in Dzogchen i.e. how it is being defined, the relevant quotes from primary sources (authoritative and accepted Dzogchen texts), the words of authentic and also living Dzogchen masters as well as the consequences of such falses view for the practice of Dzogchen itself (the last point is of particular importance).

I do not want to sound bigoted or parochial when discussing with my friend. But on the other hand there are certain things one cannot simply explain away - even for the superficial purposes of some "religious" harmony or tolerance.

Malcolm
Posts: 29106
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: False/Wrong View in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:42 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:The reason why I have been opening a new topic is, because of a recent exchange I had with an acquaintance of mine, who is an Advaitin and at the same time practices Dzogchen.

I have a very odd feeling with the whole arrangement; especially with his argumentation that lines between Buddhism and Hinduism are not so clear-cut as it may appear and that Buddhism anyway adopted many texts and teachings from Hinduism. One example he gives is the fire-ritual or homa (although I do not understand what relevance does this have for Dzogchen). He also admits that Hinduism in turn took over some Buddhist elements.

Still, it all sounds very strange.

I would like to request the participants in this discussion to focus strictly on the false view in Dzogchen i.e. how it is being defined, the relevant quotes from primary sources (authoritative and accepted Dzogchen texts), the words of authentic and also living Dzogchen masters as well as the consequences of such falses view for the practice of Dzogchen itself (the last point is of particular importance).

I do not want to sound bigoted or parochial when discussing with my friend. But on the other hand there are certain things one cannot simply explain away - even for the superficial purposes of some "religious" harmony or tolerance.
False view in Dzogchen is quite simply any view of existence or nonexistence. For example, the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra states:
  • Such false views as those
    are held to be gathered into four:
    tīrthikās, extremists,
    hedonists and cārvākas.
    The system of explaining these is as follows:
    tīrthikās maintain permanent eternalism;
    extremists maintain partial eternalism, partial annihilation;
    hedonists maintain that annihilation is total annihilation;
    Cārvākas maintain the annihilation of karmic results.

    As such, the three hundred and sixty views as well
    can be gathered into four categories.
    Further those can be included
    in eternalism and annihilationism.
    Those can also be included in meaningless nihilism.
    This is the extent of the worldly views.

AilurusFulgens
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:11 pm

Re: False/Wrong View in Dzogchen

Post by AilurusFulgens » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
AilurusFulgens wrote:The reason why I have been opening a new topic is, because of a recent exchange I had with an acquaintance of mine, who is an Advaitin and at the same time practices Dzogchen.

I have a very odd feeling with the whole arrangement; especially with his argumentation that lines between Buddhism and Hinduism are not so clear-cut as it may appear and that Buddhism anyway adopted many texts and teachings from Hinduism. One example he gives is the fire-ritual or homa (although I do not understand what relevance does this have for Dzogchen). He also admits that Hinduism in turn took over some Buddhist elements.

Still, it all sounds very strange.

I would like to request the participants in this discussion to focus strictly on the false view in Dzogchen i.e. how it is being defined, the relevant quotes from primary sources (authoritative and accepted Dzogchen texts), the words of authentic and also living Dzogchen masters as well as the consequences of such falses view for the practice of Dzogchen itself (the last point is of particular importance).

I do not want to sound bigoted or parochial when discussing with my friend. But on the other hand there are certain things one cannot simply explain away - even for the superficial purposes of some "religious" harmony or tolerance.
False view in Dzogchen is quite simply any view of existence or nonexistence. For example, the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra states:
  • Such false views as those
    are held to be gathered into four:
    tīrthikās, extremists,
    hedonists and cārvākas.
    The system of explaining these is as follows:
    tīrthikās maintain permanent eternalism;
    extremists maintain partial eternalism, partial annihilation;
    hedonists maintain that annihilation is total annihilation;
    Cārvākas maintain the annihilation of karmic results.

    As such, the three hundred and sixty views as well
    can be gathered into four categories.
    Further those can be included
    in eternalism and annihilationism.
    Those can also be included in meaningless nihilism.
    This is the extent of the worldly views.
How do the consequences of having a false view manifest in practice of Dzogchen? I mean, what does it mean for people akin to my acquaintance mentioned above, who practice the semdzins, trekchoe, etc.?

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Paul
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: False/Wrong View in Dzogchen

Post by Paul » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:41 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:How do the consequences of having a false view manifest in practice of Dzogchen? I mean, what does it mean for people akin to my acquaintance mentioned above, who practice the semdzins, trekchoe, etc.?
In Dzogchen the view IS the meditation. They aren't different. So if your view is wrong in some way, your meditation will also be faulty.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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kalden yungdrung
Posts: 4602
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: False/Wrong View in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:47 am

AilurusFulgens wrote:
I would like to request the participants in this discussion to focus strictly on the false view in Dzogchen i.e. how it is being defined, the relevant quotes from primary sources (authoritative and accepted Dzogchen texts), the words of authentic and also living Dzogchen masters as well as the consequences of such falses view for the practice of Dzogchen itself (the last point is of particular importance).

/quote]
Tashi delek AF,

According Dzogchen, a Dzogchenpa can have a wrong view about what is his/her Natural State.

Those wrong views form the specific transgressions in Dzogchen, for a Dzogchenpa.

In Tantra we know these transgressions also, as Damchig transgressions (14 main ones etc.), and the main practice would be Dorje Sempa recitation etc.

So if a Dzogchenpa did correct his/her wrong view regarding his/her Natural State, then the transgression is eradicated.

Many Tantrist here aboard have a wrong understanding about the Samayas from Dzogchenpas and compare these to their Tantric vows / Samayas / Damchig.

Here below something which Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche explains, regarding the Dzogchen Damchig or the misinterpretations etc. about one`s Natural State.

---------------------
By Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

Detailed Explanation of the 4 Damtsig of Dzogchen

What we explain for these Samayas or Damtsig is first of all the Natural State, and then the mistaken view (misinterpretation) for each point, and it is this (misinterpretation) which is breaking the vow. -

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=8307

KY
The best meditation is no meditation

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