Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

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Harimoo
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Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Harimoo » Wed May 18, 2016 9:56 am

In the DC community, it seems to me that differente persons practise different exercises. Isn't it a kind of gradualism (not in the doctrine) ?

level 1 - Khaita
level 2 - Dance of the Vajra
level 3 - Yantra Yoga
level 4 - SMS

MiphamFan
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by MiphamFan » Wed May 18, 2016 10:16 am

You can do yantra right after receiving DI, or SMS practice's.

pael
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by pael » Wed May 18, 2016 10:58 am

What is yantra? Is DI done by telepathy?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Virgo
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Virgo » Wed May 18, 2016 4:14 pm

Harimoo wrote:In the DC community, it seems to me that differente persons practise different exercises. Isn't it a kind of gradualism (not in the doctrine) ?

level 1 - Khaita
level 2 - Dance of the Vajra
level 3 - Yantra Yoga
level 4 - SMS
The first three are ways that a practitioner can work with their energy (it is easy to effect energy through body). The fourth is a systematic approach to learning many aspects of practice dealing with body, speech, and mind. In essence, these are just ways for individuals to work with the transmission through body, speech, and mind to integrate in their knowledge.

Kevin

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Harimoo
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Harimoo » Wed May 18, 2016 5:00 pm

Ok, Virgo, I understand, but this the theory.
What i am witnessing is that many people specialise themselves and, sometimes, it seems to me that :
level 1 - Khaita : practised by children and elders
level 2 - Dance of the Vajra : practised by children/teens and people in their 50/60s
level 3 - Yantra Yoga : late teens or young adults
level 4 - SMS : "hardcore" dzogchen disciples

MiphamFan
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by MiphamFan » Wed May 18, 2016 5:06 pm

You can participate in whatever you are interested in, it's not a linear thing like the way you put it.

ChNN even wrote some books on how to teach a simple version of SMS and Yantra to children.

florin
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by florin » Wed May 18, 2016 5:25 pm

pael wrote:What is yantra? Is DI done by telepathy?
Telepathic powers are not a requirement for receiving DI.

Although not specifically needed for DI , in order to have easier access to teaching materials, restricted courses, etc..you would however need some sort of financial powers.
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

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Virgo
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Virgo » Wed May 18, 2016 7:16 pm

Harimoo wrote:Ok, Virgo, I understand, but this the theory.
What i am witnessing is that many people specialise themselves and, sometimes, it seems to me that :
level 1 - Khaita : practised by children and elders
level 2 - Dance of the Vajra : practised by children/teens and people in their 50/60s
level 3 - Yantra Yoga : late teens or young adults
level 4 - SMS : "hardcore" dzogchen disciples
People are encouraged to participate according to circumstances. Me for example, I have very low energy levels so it is hard for me to even show up...

When I get a day off I need a day off, which means down time, not just socializing, and 'doing' things. Mars, my karaka for energy is heavily afflicted, but it's ruler is exalted. It's complicated (sorry, you probably have no idea what I am talking about...)

I work with circumstances, and so should all beings striving for enlightenment.

Kevin

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Vasana
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Vasana » Wed May 18, 2016 9:01 pm

MiphamFan wrote:You can do yantra right after receiving DI, or SMS practice's.
The preliminary excercises and 25 Yantras are taught publicly now, even without D.I.

Realization its self may be non gradual but stabilizing recognition is something that needs ongoing application.

Non-gradual doesn't mean a magic light switch comes on only once and you're completely finished unless you're of the highest capacity of practioners who has no need to stabilize your initial recognition.

Most of us need to recognize mind escence again and again until it's stable hence these auxiliary practices to help integrate the natural state.

Yantra can be a complete path in anf of its self if completely mastered, although the path of means is always to be accompanied by the path of wisdom.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu May 19, 2016 8:13 am

Virgo wrote:
Harimoo wrote:In the DC community, it seems to me that differente persons practise different exercises. Isn't it a kind of gradualism (not in the doctrine) ?

level 1 - Khaita
level 2 - Dance of the Vajra
level 3 - Yantra Yoga
level 4 - SMS
The first three are ways that a practitioner can work with their energy (it is easy to effect energy through body). The fourth is a systematic approach to learning many aspects of practice dealing with body, speech, and mind. In essence, these are just ways for individuals to work with the transmission through body, speech, and mind to integrate in their knowledge.

Kevin
Khaita is not really a liberating practice but more a weird cultural approach. The local DC showed it here at the Vesakh. I cannot help but thinking about tibetans dancing to german pop music in Lhasa, when I see germans dancing to tibetan pop music in Berlin.

E.g. this would be my proposal for the reverse approach, it is more connected to Vajrayana behaviour:
http://www.clipfish.de/musikvideos/vide ... die-nacht/

It even says "Komm' wir steigen auf das süße Dach dieser Welt", which is a clear reference to Tibet.

:mrgreen:

KY

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Virgo
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Virgo » Thu May 19, 2016 4:45 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Khaita is not really a liberating practice but more a weird cultural approach. The local DC showed it here at the Vesakh. I cannot help but thinking about tibetans dancing to german pop music in Lhasa, when I see germans dancing to tibetan pop music in Berlin.

KY
This is where I disagree. I used to think so myself until I realized one day that music being sound effects a person on the energy level more than we realize and that the types of songs we listen to can really effect our energy, i.e. heavy metal might be fun and stimulating to listen to it while you are listening to the song but it is like taking a certain kind of food and throughout the day, and the coming days, it has an effect of making ones energy a bit too intense in certain ways, and so on. It was then I realized that the ease of khaita, the joyful easy music and movements really help to harmonize and balance ones energy. Then I understood why Rinpoche said one day that he realized that this kind of joyful dance is connected with Dzogchen. Dzogchen is about our life and we must work with our energy, that is why we do long life practice, work a little bit with astrology, medicine, and so on.

All the best,

Kevin

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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu May 19, 2016 6:20 pm

Virgo wrote: It was then I realized that the ease of khaita, the joyful easy music and movements really help to harmonize and balance ones energy. Then I understood why Rinpoche said one day that he realized that this kind of joyful dance is connected with Dzogchen. Dzogchen is about our life and we must work with our energy, that is why we do long life practice, work a little bit with astrology, medicine, and so on.

All the best,

Kevin
Sure you can use practices to harmonise your energy or you can work with astrology or medicine. But this does not mean that those things are liberating practices by themselves.

All the best to you, too!
Karma Yeshe

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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by chimechodra » Thu May 19, 2016 6:47 pm

From my admittedly very limited understanding, Khaita is more a part of Rinpoche's efforts to preserve Tibet's culture, and it also has the side benefit of being a "practice in action" kind of activity. I remember when I met Rinpoche for the first time (and only time so far!) in Massachusetts, he commented that people were not being very mindful during the Khaita dancing... :oops:

Yantra Yoga is a complete path, and Rinpoche's uncle Togden Ugyen Tendzin achieved Rainbow Body primarily through those practices. It is not "higher" or "lower" than anything else, and in fact a good understanding of Yantra Yoga (especially the 8 Lungsangs) is indispensable for mastering some of the SMS practices. My friend who specializes in the Vajra Dancing explained to me that it comes from upadesha/menngagde. It would be a severe mistake to view any of these precious skillful means as any higher/lower/"more serious" than another.

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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 19, 2016 6:55 pm

chimechodra wrote:
Yantra Yoga is a complete path, and Rinpoche's uncle Togden Ugyen Tendzin achieved Rainbow Body primarily through those practices.
No, he achieved rainbow body through tögal, not through yantra.
It would be a severe mistake to view any of these precious skillful means as any higher/lower/"more serious" than another.
Yantra is a secondary practice, ChNN himself has stated this many times.

newbie
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by newbie » Thu May 19, 2016 8:33 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Virgo wrote: It was then I realized that the ease of khaita, the joyful easy music and movements really help to harmonize and balance ones energy. Then I understood why Rinpoche said one day that he realized that this kind of joyful dance is connected with Dzogchen. Dzogchen is about our life and we must work with our energy, that is why we do long life practice, work a little bit with astrology, medicine, and so on.

All the best,

Kevin
Sure you can use practices to harmonise your energy or you can work with astrology or medicine. But this does not mean that those things are liberating practices by themselves.

All the best to you, too!
Karma Yeshe
Don't need to be angry from such small issue.
Indeed one needs to know the purpose of Khaita joyful dances and there are so many times that Rinpoche insisted that I attend the webcasts.
That is why in return I insist he is a great teacher. I only had to win from him.

If you were to teach me Dzogchen or anything, I was dead and burried by now and a phowa transfer done to me that you forget about later.
And that is a great difference between his Buddha nature and your Buddha nature which of course I do not deny you having it.

:oops:
I'm offtopic.
But I had to say this about treating people with respect and lack of respect.

Malcolm
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 19, 2016 8:47 pm

newbie wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Virgo wrote: It was then I realized that the ease of khaita, the joyful easy music and movements really help to harmonize and balance ones energy. Then I understood why Rinpoche said one day that he realized that this kind of joyful dance is connected with Dzogchen. Dzogchen is about our life and we must work with our energy, that is why we do long life practice, work a little bit with astrology, medicine, and so on.

All the best,

Kevin
Sure you can use practices to harmonise your energy or you can work with astrology or medicine. But this does not mean that those things are liberating practices by themselves.

All the best to you, too!
Karma Yeshe
Don't need to be angry from such small issue.
Indeed one needs to know the purpose of Khaita joyful dances and there are so many times that Rinpoche insisted that I attend the webcasts.
That is why in return I insist he is a great teacher. I only had to win from him.

If you were to teach me Dzogchen or anything, I was dead and burried by now and a phowa transfer done to me that you forget about later.
And that is a great difference between his Buddha nature and your Buddha nature which of course I do not deny you having it.

:oops:
I'm offtopic.
But I had to say this about treating people with respect and lack of respect.
???

newbie
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by newbie » Thu May 19, 2016 9:25 pm

Karma Yeshe wants that from a Khaita dance extract to be liberated.

No, it needs to be a gradual approach.
First the person is removed from the stressful life to be taught anything. And I think Rinpoche has a great disponibility on accomodating anyone to his webcasts. Then from here on, with an open mind, relaxed body, one can pay attention and follow. It's a way of suffering change. :tongue:

In a way Karma Yeshe is right: one does not obtain liberation from 1 Khaita dance, but it is necessary to disconnect from stress.
And it is not only the mind set into a relaxed disposition, and the body taken out of robotic moves, but also there are other perceptions/inferences that make their way to the listener (I'm not a great dancer myself, I recognize).

My best guess is that it looks like a weird approach because one is not familiar to what it means to be liberated or coming close to being liberated.

Malcolm
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 19, 2016 9:27 pm

newbie wrote: My best guess is that it looks like a weird approach because one is not familiar to what it means to be liberated or coming close to being liberated.

What is a weird approach?

newbie
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by newbie » Thu May 19, 2016 10:03 pm

I quoted Karma Yeshe in describing something new, not previously known , not according to a consensual norm.
The expectations are that a teacher presents something to his listeners and based on previous knowledge, they build further knowledge and understanding. It is not something that is taken away from students, but given.
After all, Dzogchen is a lineage with masters as presented by ChNNR.

If I am allowed, may I ask what SMS is. This term is unfamiliar to me as it has not been explained to me yet.

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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu May 19, 2016 11:13 pm

newbie wrote:If I am allowed, may I ask what SMS is. This term is unfamiliar to me as it has not been explained to me yet.
http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachings/santimahasangha/
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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