The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

steve_bakr
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The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by steve_bakr » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:54 pm

I have read this work by Longchenpa several times and would appreciate impressions and commentaries of others here. It seems to go beyond traditional concepts and boundaries. I would also appreciate your thoughts on the "space of Phenomena."

Malcolm
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:05 pm

steve_bakr wrote:I have read this work by Longchenpa several times and would appreciate impressions and commentaries of others here. It seems to go beyond traditional concepts and boundaries. I would also appreciate your thoughts on the "space of Phenomena."
It is meant to support the practice of trekchö.

Sennin
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by Sennin » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:28 pm

Basic space of phenomena, chose dbyings, (Skt. dharmadhatu)

A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission is Longchen Rabjam Drime Ozers commentary.

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche says:

The main image of dharmadhatu is that of space—the ‘space of all things’ within which all phenomena manifest, abide and dissolve back into. […] Dharmadhatu is the basic environment of all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana. It encompasses whatever appears and exists, including the worlds and all beings.[…] The relationship between dharmadhatu, dharmakaya and [the wisdom of dharmadhatu] is like the relationship between a place, a person and the person’s mind. If there is no place, there is no environment for the person to exist in; and there is no person unless that person also has a mind dwelling in the body. In the same way, the main field or realm called dharmadhatu has the nature of dharmakaya. Dharmakaya has the quality of [the wisdom of dharmadhatu], which is like the mind aspect. […] "Dharmadhatu is adorned with dharmakaya, which is endowed with [the wisdom of dharmadhatu]." This is a brief but very profound statement, because ‘dharmadhatu’ also refers to sugatagarbha or buddha nature.
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

smcj
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by smcj » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:47 pm

RikudouSennin wrote:The relationship between dharmadhatu, dharmakaya and [the wisdom of dharmadhatu] is like the relationship between a place, a person and the person’s mind. If there is no place, there is no environment for the person to exist in; and there is no person unless that person also has a mind dwelling in the body. In the same way, the main field or realm called dharmadhatu has the nature of dharmakaya. Dharmakaya has the quality of [the wisdom of dharmadhatu], which is like the mind aspect. […] "Dharmadhatu is adorned with dharmakaya, which is endowed with [the wisdom of dharmadhatu]." This is a brief but very profound statement, because ‘dharmadhatu’ also refers to sugatagarbha or buddha nature.
Got a citation for that? Not that I understood it to begin with... :shrug:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
2. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Sennin
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by Sennin » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:14 pm

smcj wrote:Got a citation for that?
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, As It Is, Vol. I (Boudhanath, Hong Kong & Esby: Rangjung Yeshe, 1999), pages 31-32.
:reading:
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

steve_bakr
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by steve_bakr » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:16 am

Malcolm wrote:
steve_bakr wrote:I have read this work by Longchenpa several times and would appreciate impressions and commentaries of others here. It seems to go beyond traditional concepts and boundaries. I would also appreciate your thoughts on the "space of Phenomena."
It is meant to support the practice of trekchö.
Thanks. That gives me a context from which to approach this amazing work.

steve_bakr
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:03 am

Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by steve_bakr » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:38 am

RikudouSennin wrote:Basic space of phenomena, chose dbyings, (Skt. dharmadhatu)

A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission is Longchen Rabjam Drime Ozers commentary.

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche says:

The main image of dharmadhatu is that of space—the ‘space of all things’ within which all phenomena manifest, abide and dissolve back into. […] Dharmadhatu is the basic environment of all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana. It encompasses whatever appears and exists, including the worlds and all beings.[…] The relationship between dharmadhatu, dharmakaya and [the wisdom of dharmadhatu] is like the relationship between a place, a person and the person’s mind. If there is no place, there is no environment for the person to exist in; and there is no person unless that person also has a mind dwelling in the body. In the same way, the main field or realm called dharmadhatu has the nature of dharmakaya. Dharmakaya has the quality of [the wisdom of dharmadhatu], which is like the mind aspect. […] "Dharmadhatu is adorned with dharmakaya, which is endowed with [the wisdom of dharmadhatu]." This is a brief but very profound statement, because ‘dharmadhatu’ also refers to sugatagarbha or buddha nature.
If this next question is stupid, let me preface it by saying that, while I've had D.I., I am a beginner here to learn. OK, here it is. I read another work by Longchepa (the name escapes me) in which the basis is Rigpa. Here the basis is the space which is the environment or medium in which all phenomena appear. As a beginner, I am asking if there is any connection between the two. Does space have a cognitive aspect? I keep thinking that my view of what space is for Longchepa needs to be enlightened.

steve_bakr
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by steve_bakr » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:03 am

steve_bakr wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
steve_bakr wrote:I have read this work by Longchenpa several times and would appreciate impressions and commentaries of others here. It seems to go beyond traditional concepts and boundaries. I would also appreciate your thoughts on the "space of Phenomena."
It is meant to support the practice of trekchö.
Thanks. That gives me a context from which to approach this amazing work.
This work seems to break out of established forms and commonly held concepts. The author seems to be completely free. Yet he says there is no freedom because there is no bondage.

Sennin
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by Sennin » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:56 am

steve_bakr wrote:
I read another work by Longchepa (the name escapes me) in which the basis is Rigpa. Here the basis is the space which is the environment or medium in which all phenomena appear. As a beginner, I am asking if there is any connection between the two. Does space have a cognitive aspect? I keep thinking that my view of what space is for Longchepa needs to be enlightened.
Please click the image. It is the first verse of chapter 8.


Image
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

steve_bakr
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by steve_bakr » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:06 am

RikudouSennin wrote:
steve_bakr wrote:
I read another work by Longchepa (the name escapes me) in which the basis is Rigpa. Here the basis is the space which is the environment or medium in which all phenomena appear. As a beginner, I am asking if there is any connection between the two. Does space have a cognitive aspect? I keep thinking that my view of what space is for Longchepa needs to be enlightened.
Please click the image. It is the first verse of chapter 8.


Image
Thank you!

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Vasana
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by Vasana » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:11 am

steve_bakr wrote:
RikudouSennin wrote:Basic space of phenomena, chose dbyings, (Skt. dharmadhatu)

A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission is Longchen Rabjam Drime Ozers commentary.
Get this commentary. Not everything will click upon first read but you'll have a better idea about the overall meaning.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

steve_bakr
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by steve_bakr » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:19 pm

RikudouSennin wrote:
steve_bakr wrote:
I read another work by Longchepa (the name escapes me) in which the basis is Rigpa. Here the basis is the space which is the environment or medium in which all phenomena appear. As a beginner, I am asking if there is any connection between the two. Does space have a cognitive aspect? I keep thinking that my view of what space is for Longchepa needs to be enlightened.



Image
Thanks for this, it helps.

steve_bakr
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by steve_bakr » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:25 pm

Vasana wrote:
steve_bakr wrote:
RikudouSennin wrote:Basic space of phenomena, chose dbyings, (Skt. dharmadhatu)

A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission is Longchen Rabjam Drime Ozers commentary.
Get this commentary. Not everything will click upon first read but you'll have a better idea about the overall meaning.
Thanks, I managed to download a copy of this commentary in PDF format. Amazon wanted $72 and that was more than I could afford. I have already started reading it.

steve_bakr
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by steve_bakr » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:37 pm

Regarding my question about space, I have just come across a comment from Longchen Rabjam. The Quote is from "A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission."

"The basic space of phenomena-naturally occurring time-less awareness, totally pure by nature-is mind itself, ultimate truth."

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Vasana
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by Vasana » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:14 pm

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche on Space :
Two basic principles in Dzogchen teachings are space and awareness, in Tibetan ying and rigpa.

Ying is defined as unconstructed space devoid of concepts, while rigpa means the 'knowing' of that basic space.

In the context of practice, ying is defined as a clear sky free from the defects of clouds, mist and haze.


Inner ying is the nature of mind, a state that is already empty. Innermost ying is actually rigpa, nondual awareness itself.


When training, do not remain in thoughts; remain in awareness.


Ying and yeshe, basic space and wakefulness, are primordially indivisible, because our basic state is the unity of emptiness and cognizance. This is called the unity of space and wakefulness. The cognizant quality in this unity is called rigpa- awareness.


Basic space is always accompanied by basic wakefulness.


By resting freely, by utterly letting be, the empty and cognizant unity suffused with awareness is vividly present.


Directing the gaze into the midst of empty space is an aid for allowing oneself to experience the similarly unconfined and all pervasive state of rigpa.


In the ultimate sense, space and awareness are a unity.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

steve_bakr
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by steve_bakr » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:46 pm

Vasana wrote:Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche on Space :
Two basic principles in Dzogchen teachings are space and awareness, in Tibetan ying and rigpa.

Ying is defined as unconstructed space devoid of concepts, while rigpa means the 'knowing' of that basic space.

In the context of practice, ying is defined as a clear sky free from the defects of clouds, mist and haze.


Inner ying is the nature of mind, a state that is already empty. Innermost ying is actually rigpa, nondual awareness itself.


When training, do not remain in thoughts; remain in awareness.


Ying and yeshe, basic space and wakefulness, are primordially indivisible, because our basic state is the unity of emptiness and cognizance. This is called the unity of space and wakefulness. The cognizant quality in this unity is called rigpa- awareness.


Basic space is always accompanied by basic wakefulness.


By resting freely, by utterly letting be, the empty and cognizant unity suffused with awareness is vividly present.


Directing the gaze into the midst of empty space is an aid for allowing oneself to experience the similarly unconfined and all pervasive state of rigpa.


In the ultimate sense, space and awareness are a unity.
That is beautiful! I love how he brings space and awareness together as a unity. What really answered my question is when he said that space is always accompanied by wakefulness.

smcj
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by smcj » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:32 pm

In the ultimate sense, space and awareness are a unity.
That is beautiful! I love how he brings space and awareness together as a unity. What really answered my question is when he said that space is always accompanied by wakefulness.
Pretty trippy. Reminds me of the mirror metaphor.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
2. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:34 pm

smcj wrote:
In the ultimate sense, space and awareness are a unity.
That is beautiful! I love how he brings space and awareness together as a unity. What really answered my question is when he said that space is always accompanied by wakefulness.
Pretty trippy. Reminds me of the mirror metaphor.
No, since Longchenpa also ridicules the idea of mountains disappearing if we cease looking at them.

smcj
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Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by smcj » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:38 pm

No, since Longchenpa also ridicules the idea of mountains disappearing if we cease looking at them.
How does...
In the ultimate sense, space and awareness are a unity.
...suggest that mountains disappear when you stop looking at them? Or, for that matter, how does the mirror metaphor--which Longchenpa uses--suggest that either?
Last edited by smcj on Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
2. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Treasury of Basic Space of Phenomena

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:40 pm

smcj wrote:
No, since Longchenpa also ridicules the idea of mountains disappearing if we cease looking at them.
How does...
In the ultimate sense, space and awareness are a unity.
...suggest that mountains disappear when you stop looking at them? Or, for that matter, how does the mirror metaphor suggest that either?

Dude, find a Dzogchen master and stop trying to interpret this teaching based on translations for texts you have never been taught.

But just a head's up:
  • Empty vidyā, the dharmakāya beyond thought,
    is very different from space, an inert void.
    The major and minor marks of the sambhogakāya of vidyā
    are very different from the sun and moon’s inert light.
    The emanations of vidyā that performs deeds that benefit others
    is very different than the inert emanation of the four continents.
-- The Tantra of the Sun Blazing in the Clear Sky Tantra

From a karmic point of view, Dzogchen makes a hard distinction between inert and sentient phenomena, even if that distinction vanishes in realization.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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