Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

bfaus
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:07 am
Contact:

Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby bfaus » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:18 pm

Please forgive my ignorant question, but it is sincere.

Is smoking pipe tobacco an obstacle to realization, in and of itself? I have read a post: http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 ... it=Tobacco. This seems to point to 'yes', Can a senior student of the DC confirm this for me?

Note that pipe smoking, in this context, doesn't equate to smoking cigarettes, or inhaling tobacco, or even compulsory smoking.

Thank you!

User avatar
tiagolps
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby tiagolps » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:32 pm

Smoking causes back pain while I meditate, compared to weeks when I don't smoke, were there doesn't seem to be any pain.
Nagas and termas aside, thats clear indication that smoking harms my practice.
"Buddhahhod, really, is like an infection, it goes from one person to another,
You can fight it off, but it's a pitty if you do that."

– Rigdzin Shikpo

My practice is devotion to the buddhist path; others may choose doubting the buddhist path.
But as Dharmakirti said, ultimately we must abandon the path.
So I hope in the end we will meet where we have nothing to fight over.
– Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche

Norwegian
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby Norwegian » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:35 pm

"The Harmful Effects of Tobacco
Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche

A brief explanation called "The guide who leads the blind from the wrong path ending in a precipice"

Introduction

It is quite remarkable that Tibetan Buddhist civilization seems to be very unique in having always considered the use of tobacco and drugs not only harmful to health but also a major hindrance to spiritual development.

In this text, His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche, explaining the history and the defects of these substances, has gathered the main pronouncements of Guru Padmasambhava concerning them, predictions that were revealed as Termas throughout Tibetan history by great Tertons such as Machik Labdron (11th century), Rigzin Godem (1327-1387), Sangye Lingpa (1403-1478), Duddul Dordje (1615-1672), Longsel Nyingpo (1615-1672), Drodul Lingpa (17th century) and Tugchog Dorje (18th century).

...

May this be auspicious! Having paid homage with deep respect to the Great Urgyen, wisdom body of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, Union of all the Buddha´s families, I shall relate here the history of tobacco.

Long ago, about one hundred years after lord Buddha had passed into Nirvana, in the land of China there was a girl of the race of demons who having been driven mad by her mind of great lust, spoke these words as she was dying: "With this body of mine, I pray that beings of this earth may be lead to the lower realms. Bury my corpse intact and after some time a flower, different from all others will grow from my womb. Merely by smelling its scent one will experience in both body and mind an unimaginable bliss, far more pleasurable than the union of male and female. It will spread far and wide until most of the beings on this earth will enjoy it." At present the actual fruition of her wish is clearly evident.

Infamous opium and other related intoxicants taken by mouth or nose neither help dispel thirst or hunger, nor have a delicious taste and are without a single benefit for strength, constitution or life force.

Furthermore these substances serve to increase nervousness and blood pressure and cause cancer and pulmonary diseases. In these days almost every one of great or modest condition develops an irresistible attraction for these substances and consumes them without control. This is how the wish of the demoness has ultimately born its fruit.

As is found in the Terma of Chogyal Ratna Lingpa: "When the Great Master Padmasambhava was binding the Nine Brothers, breakers of the samaya , under path the youngest of them spoke: 'brothers, do not despair, listen to me. I shall manifest myself in the country of China as tobacco; the name of this toxin will be 'the black poison'. It will appear in the borderlands and from there it will be introduced to central Tibet. The people of Tibet will consume this enjoyable substance. By the strength of this, the five gross poisons will increase. Rejecting the ten virtuous actions, people will practice the ten unvirtuous ones.

The life of the holders of the doctrine will become precarious and they will depart for the Buddha Fields. The smoke of this poison, penetrating the earth will annihilate hundred thousands of naga cities. Rain will not fall, harvest and livestock will not prosper, there will be civil disorders, epidemics, and various undesirable events. The poisonous smoke rising to the sky will destroy abode of the gods, ultimately eclipses and comets will appear. The essential fluids and veins of those who smoke will dry up. It will be the cause for the four hundred and four sicknesses to arise. Whoever smokes will be reborn in lower realms. If one smokes and others inhale the odor, it will be as if one were extrincating the heart of six million
beings."

Also according to the terma of Sangye Lingpa: "In this decadent age people will indulge in various unwholesome actions. In particular, instead of eating food that is tasty men will consume the worst substances that are both poisonous and smell bad. Interrupting what they are doing, they will frantically consume the poison. They will spit and their nose will run uncontrollably, their health and complexion will fade."

In the terma found by Rigzin Godem, there is the prediction. "In the ultimate decadent age, people will absorb poisonous vomit, food of the gandharva. Merely smelling it, one will go to the Avici hell. For this reason, give it up right now."

From the predictions discovered by Duddul Dorje: "Monks and nuns will enjoy inhaling the smoke of these plants and sniffing their powder and the country will be invaded by samayas´ breakers. With compulsive desire arising ceaselessly, they will be thus deceived by Mara, and as a sign of the exhaustion of merits tears will flow without control."

Longsal revealed the following prediction: "The time when people will smoke these wicked substances is also the time when close friends will poison each other."

In revelations found as terma by Tugchog Dorje: "Because of the five gross poisons, hatred, troubles, quarrels and sorrows of beings will blaze like an inferno. As the ten virtues are discarded the non-virtues will rage like a store. Wholesome activities will be neglected, while perverse practices will be protected. In this bad age, protecting gods will vanish as demons assume power. People will inhale tobacco smoke, the veins of discriminative wisdom thus becoming blocked, agitation and obscuring emotions will be intensified. The central channel will be obstructed and, consequently, the limpid clarity of one's awareness will aim. General merit exhausted will cause agitation around the world. Religious objects, the receptacles of blessings, will deteriorate: wrong views and false religions will spread. The protective deities will turn aside and look only towards Mount Meru. Foreigners will invade central Tibet and the natives will be forced to wander in borderlands. Doctrines of Mara will spread and the earth will become an actual hell."

Drodul Lingpa discovered the following predictions: "By merely smelling the odor of these herbs, grasses and leaves which sprang from a drop of blood of an ogress, one will go to the Vajra hell."

From the prediction of Machik Lapdron: "In the final age of disputes there will be something that one puts in the mouth, endowed with all the five poisons. It will originate in China, spread to Mongolia, and be consumed by the people of Tibet. it will cause rainfall to be irregular, there will be great frosts and hail. If meditators take these, even if they practice for one hundred kalpas, they will not realize the deity. In future lives, they will wander continuously in the lower realms. Even the compassion of the Three Supreme Ones will have no power to protect them."

Thus it is said in innumerable predictions. The use of all these substances has been also particularly forbidden by many sayings of accomplished sages of both the new and ancient traditions. The vajra words of Urgyen Rinpoche never deceive, so do not have such false views as: "How can there be so many defects in smoking a natural plant?" Aconite also is a species of plant, yet just eating a small amount can cause physical death. Why, then, couldn’t the fruit of the perverse wishes of a demoness cause spiritual death? Therefore wise persons will certainly do themselves a great kindness by completely renouncing these substances.

May the faithful and the wise who avoided the path to the precipice, have the good fortune of finding relief in the blissful garden of liberation.

At the request of Golok Serta Jigme, this was written by Vajra Jnana. May it be auspicious!

Translated according to the explanations of Khenpo Pema Sherab. (C)

(C) Etitions Padmakara

"Smoking begins as a mere sensation and then spirals into addiction. Texts detailing the origins of its harmful effects explain that tobacco is not an ordinary plant. Long ago, a demon king called Karbunchok, together with his queen and ministers, supplicated negative forces with the malevolent wish that whoever smoked these leaves would bring immense trouble upon themselves, lose all the mental control necessary to maintain the right view and so be led to the lower realms."
-- Trulshik Rinpoche

bfaus
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:07 am
Contact:

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby bfaus » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:38 pm

tiagolps wrote:Smoking causes back pain while I meditate, compared to weeks when I don't smoke, were there doesn't seem to be any pain.
Nagas and termas aside, thats clear indication that smoking harms my practice.


Thank you for sharing your experience. Can you clarify for me, when you say 'smoking', do you mean cigarettes or pipes?

bfaus
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:07 am
Contact:

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby bfaus » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:44 pm

Norwegian wrote:
(C) Etitions Padmakara

"Smoking begins as a mere sensation and then spirals into addiction. Texts detailing the origins of its harmful effects explain that tobacco is not an ordinary plant. Long ago, a demon king called Karbunchok, together with his queen and ministers, supplicated negative forces with the malevolent wish that whoever smoked these leaves would bring immense trouble upon themselves, lose all the mental control necessary to maintain the right view and so be led to the lower realms."
-- Trulshik Rinpoche


Indeed! Thus my question. I do enjoy smoking a pipe now and again, but I can honestly say that I am not addicted. I don't feel I need to smoke a pipe and can and have gone months without picking one up. However, if the above is true and tobacco smoking, including pipe tobacco, is a hindrance to practice....I will cease immediately.

bfaus
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:07 am
Contact:

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby bfaus » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:57 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Long ago, about one hundred years after lord Buddha had passed into Nirvana, in the land of China there was a girl of the race of demons who having been driven mad by her mind of great lust, spoke these words as she was dying: "With this body of mine, I pray that beings of this earth may be lead to the lower realms. Bury my corpse intact and after some time a flower, different from all others will grow from my womb. Merely by smelling its scent one will experience in both body and mind an unimaginable bliss, far more pleasurable than the union of male and female. It will spread far and wide until most of the beings on this earth will enjoy it."


This sounds more like opium rather than tobacco. I have never derived that much pleasure from tobacco. :tongue:


Drodul Lingpa discovered the following predictions: "By merely smelling the odor of these herbs, grasses and leaves which sprang from a drop of blood of an ogress, one will go to the Vajra hell."


Does this mean I'm already screwed and destined for Vajra hell?

User avatar
tiagolps
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby tiagolps » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:21 am

bfaus wrote:
tiagolps wrote:Smoking causes back pain while I meditate, compared to weeks when I don't smoke, were there doesn't seem to be any pain.
Nagas and termas aside, thats clear indication that smoking harms my practice.


Thank you for sharing your experience. Can you clarify for me, when you say 'smoking', do you mean cigarettes or pipes?


Any tobacco smoke that enters your lungs,
"Buddhahhod, really, is like an infection, it goes from one person to another,
You can fight it off, but it's a pitty if you do that."

– Rigdzin Shikpo

My practice is devotion to the buddhist path; others may choose doubting the buddhist path.
But as Dharmakirti said, ultimately we must abandon the path.
So I hope in the end we will meet where we have nothing to fight over.
– Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3538
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby Adamantine » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:43 am

I have it on very good Vajra authority that smoking actually blocks one's inner subtle channels and becomes a hindrance to Vajrayana practice as a result. What's more, this causes problems with not only one's own ability to perform Phowa at the time of death, but hinders a powerful Lama's ability to perform Phowa for you. It's certainly an obstacle. I personally found that my capacity for self-deception (although still present) was significantly reduced merely by quitting tobacco entirely.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

bfaus
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:07 am
Contact:

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby bfaus » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:33 am

Adamantine wrote:I have it on very good Vajra authority that smoking actually blocks one's inner subtle channels and becomes a hindrance to Vajrayana practice as a result. What's more, this causes problems with not only one's own ability to perform Phowa at the time of death, but hinders a powerful Lama's ability to perform Phowa for you. It's certainly an obstacle. I personally found that my capacity for self-deception (although still present) was significantly reduced merely by quitting tobacco entirely.


Thank you! From the different texts posted via links and direct quotes above there seem to be a similar theme about the blocking of the central channel. My primary concern is this and/or being destined for vajra hell. If you wouldn't mind....can you tell me who/what the "very good Vajra Authority" is (be it book or person)? You can PM if that will be better.

Very much appreciated.

crazy-man
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby crazy-man » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:22 pm

Smoking is the habit of inhaling the smoke of smouldering tobacco leaves either by means of cigarettes or pipes. Tobacco was unknown in ancient India but people did inhale smoke for medical and recreational purposes. According to the Su÷ruta Cikitsà, an ancient treatise on medicine, inhaling smoke is good as a purgative, a cure for tiredness, depression, throat and nose problems and is also beneficial for pregnant women. Certain herbs were burned and the smoke sniffed in through a small metal tube (dhåmanetti). The Buddha subscribed to this kind of smoke therapy and allowed monks and nuns to have smoking tubes (Vin.I,204), although some people apparently considered them to be a luxury (Ja.IV,363).
Cigarettes (dhåmavaññi) smoked for enjoyment were made by grinding cardamom, saffron, sandalwood and aloe wood into a fine paste and moulding it over a reed so that it was about 15 centimetres long and with the thickness of a thumb. When the paste was dry, the reed was removed and the resulting cigarette was smeared with clarified butter or sandalwood oil before being ignited. These cigarettes were probably far less harmful than the modern ones. Another ancient medical work, the Caraka Saühità, recommends sitting in an upright but comfortable posture while smoking, taking three puffs at a time and inhaling through both the mouth and nostrils but exhaling only through nostrils.

http://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=387

According to the Nyingma Master Trulshik Rinpoche,
"Smoking begins as a mere sensation and then spirals into addiction. Texts detailing the orgins of it's harmful effects explain that tobacco is not an ordinary plant. Long ago, a demon king called Karbunchok, together with his queen and ministers, supplicated negative forces with the malevolent wish that whoever smoked these leaves would bring immense trouble upon themselves, lose all the mental control necessary to mainatain the right view and so be led to the lower realms."
According to the Gelug Master Zopa Rinpoche:
Tobacco is a very impure plant, it came about due to devils, who made prayers to harm people. Then, from that, tobacco grew, to harm people. Especially, it blocks spiritual development. If spiritual development doesn't happen, then one has to continually die and be reborn, and experience continual suffering and problems, again and again, without end, as human beings, hell beings, devas, animals, etc. There is no end to the suffering in samsara and, also, you can't liberate thousands of others from samsaric suffering, and bring them to full enlightenment.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/merlin-s ... 495685876/

Smoking tobacco
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=4050

Stop Smoking by Using Buddhist Methods
http://www.bamboo-delight.com/Wu_Files/Stop_Smok.txt

more:
http://www.dudjom-on-smoking.org/index_eng.php
http://buddhism.stackexchange.com/quest ... an-smoking

Sādhaka
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby Sādhaka » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:56 pm

bfaus wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
Long ago, about one hundred years after lord Buddha had passed into Nirvana, in the land of China there was a girl of the race of demons who having been driven mad by her mind of great lust, spoke these words as she was dying: "With this body of mine, I pray that beings of this earth may be lead to the lower realms. Bury my corpse intact and after some time a flower, different from all others will grow from my womb. Merely by smelling its scent one will experience in both body and mind an unimaginable bliss, far more pleasurable than the union of male and female. It will spread far and wide until most of the beings on this earth will enjoy it."


This sounds more like opium rather than tobacco. I have never derived that much pleasure from tobacco. :tongue:


Drodul Lingpa discovered the following predictions: "By merely smelling the odor of these herbs, grasses and leaves which sprang from a drop of blood of an ogress, one will go to the Vajra hell."


Does this mean I'm already screwed and destined for Vajra hell?


I agree, that certainly does not sound like a description of tobacco, but opium rather.


Posted in another thread, regarding tobacco, and marijuana (?):


Benten wrote:I have in hand a copy of a teaching by the previous Kalu Rinpoche. He said that 'smoking' pretty much screws up your ability to open the chakras and really screws up the lotuses. Helluva a hard time controlling the winds and mind if you smoke. And at some point moot. Also there is a profound Guru Rinpoche Terma (two red texts currently packed so no direct quote) where it is stated if you smoke it will be eons before you are in his presence....


This also sounds like it could be in reference to opium, rather than marijuana.

I want to know if Benten still visits this forum, or if anyone knows which Terma they are referring to here.

In any case, I think that if you've smoked any of these substances before, the quotes from various texts, Termas, etc. here do not necessarily indicate that Vajra hell is inevitable, or that you definitely won't be in Guru Rinpoche's presence for eons, etc.

I think that they do indicate however that if you've smoked these kinds of things before and yet you do not purify the karma accumulated from having done so, then the hells etc. will come. Therefore, for anyone who is in the habit of smoking anything like tobacco, opium, marijuana, or taking synthetic/artificial drugs, it would be wise to just stop it; and then start doing purification and healing practices, along with various cleanses and Tibetan Medicines and so forth.

Simon E.
Posts: 4372
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby Simon E. » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:24 pm

Smoking tobacco is a very bad idea. Bad for physical health. Bad for psychological health. Bad for the bank balance.
Yet...two of my teachers smoked. One still might.
One of them is fairly obvious. The other is/was Lama Chime who liked a good cigar.

Its almost like the teachers like being provocative.. :o
" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

Sādhaka
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby Sādhaka » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:10 pm

There's a story about a Lama who took a student's cigarette, took a drag, and blew smoke from his skin pores, and then said (paraphrased) 'When you can do this, then you can smoke without any problems'.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bfaus
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:07 am
Contact:

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby bfaus » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:20 pm

Does all this apply if the tobacco smoke is not inhaled (as was stated in my first post)?

User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 6180
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby Ayu » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:33 am

bfaus wrote:Does all this apply if the tobacco smoke is not inhaled (as was stated in my first post)?

The poison enters the body over the tongue and the mucous membranes as well. People who do not inhale get similarly adicted like those who do inhale.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

kukuripa
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:49 pm

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby kukuripa » Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:32 pm

As a former smoker ,I can assure you that it harms your winds and channels,and so does weed.

But your attachment to tobacco may be a more serious impediment

bfaus
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:07 am
Contact:

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby bfaus » Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:41 pm

Ayu wrote:
bfaus wrote:Does all this apply if the tobacco smoke is not inhaled (as was stated in my first post)?

The poison enters the body over the tongue and the mucous membranes as well. People who do not inhale get similarly adicted like those who do inhale.


Thank you!

bfaus
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:07 am
Contact:

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby bfaus » Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:42 pm

kukuripa wrote:As a former smoker ,I can assure you that it harms your winds and channels,and so does weed.

But your attachment to tobacco may be a more serious impediment


Ha! Yes, I'm so attached that I plan on getting rid of my pipes and pipe tobacco because of the impacts it can have on my practice.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 23100
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:55 pm

Sādhaka wrote:There's a story about a Lama who took a student's cigarette, took a drag, and blew smoke from his skin pores, and then said (paraphrased) 'When you can do this, then you can smoke without any problems'.


It was Dudjom Lingpa, and he used tobacco regularly.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


"Belief is useless."

-- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 939
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?

Postby Losal Samten » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sādhaka wrote:There's a story about a Lama who took a student's cigarette, took a drag, and blew smoke from his skin pores, and then said (paraphrased) 'When you can do this, then you can smoke without any problems'.


It was Dudjom Lingpa, and he used tobacco regularly.

And even then it was said to be why Dudjom Rinpoche had bad asthma.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།


Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: practitioner, Virgo and 38 guests