Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post Reply
JAC72
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:42 pm

Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by JAC72 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:11 pm

Just curious what people think in terms of the practice and result. Do both Dzogchen and Mahamudra lead to the same kind of awakening?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24546
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:19 pm

JAC72 wrote:Just curious what people think in terms of the practice and result. Do both Dzogchen and Mahamudra lead to the same kind of awakening?

Yes. But their paths are quite different.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6619
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Astus » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:31 pm

See also an older thread: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
Kelwin
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:52 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Kelwin » Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:21 am

Lama Lena gave this very simple and direct summary:
In Dzogchen we recognize the nature of mind. Whenever we don't recognize it, we cut through to the essence, until we recognize it again.
In Mahamudra we recognize the nature of mind. Whenever we don't recognize it, we pray to the lama for blessing, until we recognize it again.
Needless to say, both practices can be integrated. Of course we cut through to the essence in Mahamudra as well, and pray to the lama for blessing in Dzogchen as well.
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:28 pm

JAC72 wrote:Just curious what people think in terms of the practice and result. Do both Dzogchen and Mahamudra lead to the same kind of awakening?

Some say:

- Dzogchen is not the same as Mahamudra
- Dzogchen is the same as Mahamudra
- Dzogchen is partly Mahamudra

These 3 Visions are general shared in the world of Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

Better do not ask yourself this all, but practice and wait until you die, then there is the prove.
Until then success with your practice, then there is sure a conviction and not a belief.

But for the Mahamudra adherents i would suggest to do maybe a Dzogchen dark retreat ?

Mutsug Marro
KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4574
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:35 pm

With all due respect, I don't support considering it wise for Chagchenpas to attempt a dark retreat without undergoing all the other stages of the Dzogchen training first.

Those who are drawn to Dzogchen, practice Dzogchen. Those drawn to Mahamudra, practice Mahamudra. Those drawn to LamDre...those drawn to the path of means (six yogas), Etc., etc.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:58 pm

conebeckham wrote:

Code: Select all

With all due respect, I don't support considering it wise for Chagchenpas to attempt a dark retreat without undergoing all the other stages of the Dzogchen training first.[/quote]
Thought always that a Chagya Chenpa was fit enough to do a dark retreat based on his/her experience. I guess a Dzogchenpa can practice Mahamudra "meditation", that abiding in the "essence".


[quote]Those who are drawn to Dzogchen, practice Dzogchen. Those drawn to Mahamudra, practice Mahamudra.  Those drawn to LamDre...those drawn to the path of means (six yogas), Etc., etc.[/quote][/quote]
Those who can drawn into everything is that also possible maybe?
The best meditation is no meditation

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6619
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Astus » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:35 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Those who can drawn into everything is that also possible maybe?
Why not? On the other hand, Gampopa wrote (JOL, p 251, 252):

"If the meaning of emptiness does not dwell within the mind, we cannot attain liberation by means of the other virtues.
When one is endowed with the meaning of emptiness, there is not a single thing which in not included in this path."


And Lama Zhang (Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 126):

"In the instant that you realize your own mind,
all good qualities, without exception,
are simultaneously completed without having to accomplish them."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

BuddhaFollower
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:41 pm

Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24546
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:46 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.
That may well be the case, historically, but it cannot be denied that in the ninth century, in India, there was a skeptical movement with respect to creation stage ritualism, as well as sexual yogas and so on found in the so called highest yoga tantras that originated with Śrī Siṃha and his milieu, and was continued later by Saraha, etc. Indians like Vairocanaraksita and Vajrapani introduced Mahāmudra to Tibet as an independent tradition. This is well established now. Read Klaus Dieter Matthis.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6619
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Astus » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:50 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.
It is the unique teaching of Gampopa, founder of all Dakpo Kagyu lineages. Besides that, as Malcolm mentioned, there are studies out there about the origins of the Maitripa lineage.
Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"
Dzogchen as a separate method is a Tibetan invention as well, maybe even later than Mahamudra. So the question could be "HYT same as HYT?" :sage:
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4574
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.
That may well be the case, historically, but it cannot be denied that in the ninth century, in India, there was a skeptical movement with respect to creation stage ritualism, as well as sexual yogas and so on found in the so called highest yoga tantras that originated with Śrī Siṃha and his milieu, and was continued later by Saraha, etc. Indians like Vairocanaraksita and Vajrapani introduced Mahāmudra to Tibet as an independent tradition. This is well established now. Read Klaus Dieter Matthis.
And even if it were a "Tibetan invention," so what?
I am quite certain the same aspersions have been cast on Dzogchen on the past.

It gets quite tiresome, frankly.
EDIT: I see Astus has cast the same aspersions, LOL. :anjali:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24546
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:53 pm

Astus wrote:
Dzogchen as a separate method is a Tibetan invention as well...
No, it is clearly an earlier, skeptical movement that can be directly traced back to Śrī Siṃha in India, and we have evidence for this in the work of Mañjuśrīkiriti, who mentions Śrī Siṃha by name, as well as other associates of Padmsambhava such as Bhikṣuni Nandi.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24546
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:54 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.
That may well be the case, historically, but it cannot be denied that in the ninth century, in India, there was a skeptical movement with respect to creation stage ritualism, as well as sexual yogas and so on found in the so called highest yoga tantras that originated with Śrī Siṃha and his milieu, and was continued later by Saraha, etc. Indians like Vairocanaraksita and Vajrapani introduced Mahāmudra to Tibet as an independent tradition. This is well established now. Read Klaus Dieter Matthis.
And even if it were a "Tibetan invention," so what?
I am quite certain the same aspersions have been cast on Dzogchen on the past.

It gets quite tiresome, frankly.
EDIT: I see Astus has cast the same aspersions, LOL. :anjali:
To whom is this addressed?
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6619
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Astus » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:No, it is clearly an earlier, skeptical movement that can be directly traced back to Śrī Siṃha in India, and we have evidence for this in the work of Mañjuśrīkiriti, who mentions Śrī Siṃha by name, as well as other associates of Padmsambhava such as Bhikṣuni Nandi.
I've read some works of Mathes but don't remember any mention of Dzogchen there. Do you know which one it was? Or do you mean that Dzogchen has the same origin as Mahamudra in India?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4574
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
That may well be the case, historically, but it cannot be denied that in the ninth century, in India, there was a skeptical movement with respect to creation stage ritualism, as well as sexual yogas and so on found in the so called highest yoga tantras that originated with Śrī Siṃha and his milieu, and was continued later by Saraha, etc. Indians like Vairocanaraksita and Vajrapani introduced Mahāmudra to Tibet as an independent tradition. This is well established now. Read Klaus Dieter Matthis.
And even if it were a "Tibetan invention," so what?
I am quite certain the same aspersions have been cast on Dzogchen on the past.

It gets quite tiresome, frankly.
EDIT: I see Astus has cast the same aspersions, LOL. :anjali:
To whom is this addressed?
Sorry....This was addressed primarily to Buddhafollower, who started the discussion about the validity and origin of Mahamudra as a "stand-alone" system. I am in agreement with you.

Also, though I think it was Astus who gave a shout-out to Gampopa, I want to also recommend that people read about Maitripa and his amanaskara tradition.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24546
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:10 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, it is clearly an earlier, skeptical movement that can be directly traced back to Śrī Siṃha in India, and we have evidence for this in the work of Mañjuśrīkiriti, who mentions Śrī Siṃha by name, as well as other associates of Padmsambhava such as Bhikṣuni Nandi.
I've read some works of Mathes but don't remember any mention of Dzogchen there. Do you know which one it was? Or do you mean that Dzogchen has the same origin as Mahamudra in India?

No, this reference is not in Matthis. You can find the reference in Yarnall's translation of the creation stage section of sngags rim chen mo of Tsongkhapa. He is not so confident about the identity of the named figures because he is not very familiar with the sNying ma tradition and its history. But I am quite certain that the reference refers to Śrī Siṃha. Moreover, there was push back by the anonymous author of the Hevajra Tantra who places this debate in the mouth of Vajragarbha:
  • Vajragarbha asked:

    “This yoga of the completion stage,
    its joy is called great bliss.
    Completion is not a meditation,
    so why do creation?”

    The Bhgavan replied:

    “Incredible, the great bodhisattva,
    has lost the power of faith.
    Where does bliss come from without the existence of the body?
    Such bliss cannot be spoken of.
    Joy pervades all migrating beings
    in the form of pervaded and pervader.

    Just as the fragrance present in a flower,
    cannot be known without the flower’s existence.
    In the same way, since form and so on won’t exist,
    also bliss itself won’t be perceived.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4574
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:13 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
conebeckham wrote:

Code: Select all

With all due respect, I don't support considering it wise for Chagchenpas to attempt a dark retreat without undergoing all the other stages of the Dzogchen training first.[/quote]
Thought always that a Chagya Chenpa was fit enough to do a dark retreat based on his/her experience. I guess a Dzogchenpa can practice Mahamudra "meditation", that abiding in the "essence".


[quote]Those who are drawn to Dzogchen, practice Dzogchen. Those drawn to Mahamudra, practice Mahamudra.  Those drawn to LamDre...those drawn to the path of means (six yogas), Etc., etc.[/quote][/quote]
Those who can drawn into everything is that also possible maybe?[/quote]

Maybe.  Certainly there are historical examples--including my main and continuing inspiration, Kongtrul.  But I honestly doubt it is possible for most of us.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:45 pm

Ganacakrapuja is the hallmark of Vajrayana. Initiations are highly variable.
Delete my account

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 7217
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:00 pm

What differentiates practitioners of Mahamudra or HYT from Dzogchenpa, view, practice, both?
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 45 guests