So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?BuddhaFollower wrote: Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
- Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Gelugs used to reject terms myths.tomamundsen wrote:So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?BuddhaFollower wrote: Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
Past tense.
Dalai Lama is a bit Nyingma. Probably a terton.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
BuddhaFollower wrote:Gelugs used to reject terms myths.tomamundsen wrote:So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?BuddhaFollower wrote: Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
Past tense.
Dalai Lama is a bit Nyingma. Probably a terton.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Personally, I never rejeceted any kind of womenconebeckham wrote:
Personally, I reject only strange women lying in ponds distributing swords--you know, farcical aquatic ceremonies and such.
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Yeah the Tibetans in the Chinese sphere seem to adapt their teachings for that audience, buying into the whole lower tantra purity schtick but is that really what the Indians did in Tibet?Crazywisdom wrote:Amitovo and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with themdzogchungpa wrote:How are they doing it for China?Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
The post-Imperial Tibetans were afraid of the inner tantras and the rhetoric of liberation and union but the Indians went ahead and taught them what they could, they didn't emphasize lower tantra.
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Tibetans were paying good money for every sorcerer's secret. The rest got kadampa, monastic approach.MiphamFan wrote:Yeah the Tibetans in the Chinese sphere seem to adapt their teachings for that audience, buying into the whole lower tantra purity schtick but is that really what the Indians did in Tibet?Crazywisdom wrote:Amitovo and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with themdzogchungpa wrote: How are they doing it for China?
The post-Imperial Tibetans were afraid of the inner tantras and the rhetoric of liberation and union but the Indians went ahead and taught them what they could, they didn't emphasize lower tantra.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Some Tibetan lamas who want to teach Chinese emphasize vegetarianism and other stuff which Chinese associate with "Buddhism". This is quite bad for Tibetan nomads, very hard for them to live like that. Jamyang Kyi has written a few essays on this available translated on High Peaks Pure Earth.
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Well, even completely Indian Vajrayana like Cakrasamvara, Hevajra etc failed to survive in India proper. Even the Newaris don't really practise like what the texts say. So you can say the same thing of any sarma lineage too.florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?Crazywisdom wrote:
Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Uses its own momentum against itself.MalaBeads wrote:I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?Crazywisdom wrote:
Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Thank you.Crazywisdom wrote:Uses its own momentum against itself.MalaBeads wrote:I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?Crazywisdom wrote:
Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.
Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.heart wrote:And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.
Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"
/magnus
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
I bet there's a third, fourth ,fith choice etc but ' a bit of both' seems most accommodating.Kelwin wrote:I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.heart wrote:And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.
Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"
/magnus
I think that Tantras arising as compassionate expressions from the clarity of one's mind satisfies both the 'human invention' advocates and the 'other' realm advocates. The 'other' realm being the non-deluded mind inseparable from Samanthabhadra, Vajradhara ,Vajrasattva and all of the bijas and mantra garlands of all Deities.
Again, there are probably more options given different contexts.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Is there a difference?Kelwin wrote:I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?Sherab Dorje wrote:Is there a difference?Kelwin wrote:I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.Kelwin wrote:Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?Sherab Dorje wrote:Is there a difference?Kelwin wrote:I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Impermanence is not an invention. For me this sort of discovery is the litmus test of reliability.heart wrote:And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.
Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"
/magnus
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Dzogchen translations are always very welcome!Malcolm wrote:There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.Kelwin wrote:Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?Sherab Dorje wrote:Is there a difference?
Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.
Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Please do!Malcolm wrote: There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.
Kevin