Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:18 am

Kelwin wrote:Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?
Quite obviously you do not understand the nature of Buddhist Deities.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:19 am

Malcolm wrote:There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.
Please do! I am sure there is a whole heap of egos here that would benefit from it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Kelwin » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:44 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Kelwin wrote:Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?
Quite obviously you do not understand the nature of Buddhist Deities.
Haha, ok, if you say so :twothumbsup:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Kelwin » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:48 am

Malcolm wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Is there a difference?
Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.
There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.
We've all read lots of texts saying it is superior. And lots of texts saying it is the same/similair. Personally, I like Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's perspective. Does Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme offer any new argument to the conversation that hasn't been translated before? I'd certainly be interested! Summary of the point he makes more than welcome.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:00 pm

Kelwin wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Kelwin wrote: Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.
There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.
We've all read lots of texts saying it is superior. And lots of texts saying it is the same/similair. Personally, I like Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's perspective. Does Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme offer any new argument to the conversation that hasn't been translated before? I'd certainly be interested! Summary of the point he makes more than welcome.

He lists six points of superiority:

1. The Great Perfection is superior through its preliminary practice.

2. It is superior through its ripening empowerments.

3. It is superior through its physiology of nāḍīs, vāyus and bindus.

4. It is superior through the great transference rainbow body of the fourth vision of thögal.

5. It is superior through its method.

6. It is superior through its explanation of the measurement of liberation.

Indeed, he finds evidence that Milarepa practiced the preliminaries of the Great Perfection (ever a subject of controversy) in a verse from one of Mila's songs:
  • I, MIlarepa, have gained prowess,
    prowess in the training in awakened mind.
Dudjom Rinpoche more or less cribs his arguments for the superiority of Dzogchen from this source.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:12 pm

Kelwin wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Kelwin wrote:Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?
Quite obviously you do not understand the nature of Buddhist Deities.
Haha, ok, if you say so :twothumbsup:
Sorry, misread/misinterpreted your remark! ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:14 pm

Well if a Dzogchenpa says that Dzogchen is superior to every other system then it must be true...

I hear Christians believe their God is the one and true God and have texts to back the claim too... :roll:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:22 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Well if a Dzogchenpa says that Dzogchen is superior to every other system then it must be true...
Reasons are given. Now that Dudjom Rinpoche is your paramaguru, perhaps you should read and ponder his arguments which make the same six points.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Virgo » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:07 pm

Virgo wrote:
Malcolm wrote: There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.
Please do!

Kevin
Translations like this are so important.

Kevin

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:Reasons are given. Now that Dudjom Rinpoche is your paramaguru, perhaps you should read and ponder his arguments which make the same six points.
Perhaps, and perhaps I can also apply some critical thinking and discriminatory wisdom too. It's actually encouraged, if I remember correctly.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:30 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Reasons are given. Now that Dudjom Rinpoche is your paramaguru, perhaps you should read and ponder his arguments which make the same six points.
Perhaps, and perhaps I can also apply some critical thinking and discriminatory wisdom too. It's actually encouraged, if I remember correctly.
As I said, perhaps you should ponder his arguments, rather than just go to the kneejerk fake Rime response.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:As I said, perhaps you should ponder his arguments, rather than just go to the kneejerk fake Rime response.
I did ponder it and it seemed like the normal boring old Dzogchen triumphalism that I tend to run into at ever corner. But since you insist:

1. The Great Perfection is superior through its preliminary practice. Why? Every system has it's preliminary practices and they don't seem to differ all that drastically. Even if they do differ on minor details, seems they all have the same goal.

2. It is superior through its ripening empowerments. Why? Every system has it's ripening empowerments and all aim for the realisation, or insight into, the true state of "mind"

3. It is superior through its physiology of nāḍīs, vāyus and bindus. Hmmmmm... Maybe... I don't have enough experience and knowledge to judge this.

4. It is superior through the great transference rainbow body of the fourth vision of thögal. This does not necessarily make it superior. It means that it has a specific method with a specific outcome. French cooking has souffle, it does not make it superior to Greek cooking which does not have souffle.

5. It is superior through its method. cf 4.

6. It is superior through its explanation of the measurement of liberation. I am not even going to pretend to know what this means. Does it mean it considers liberation differently to other systems? Does it though? Seems to me it doesn't really consider it all that differently to any other Vajrayana system.

Is that enough pondering?

Personally, what I find annoying is when people take statements like the above and then use them to further bolster pride, ego, feelings of superiority, etc... My system is better than your system. My realisation is higher than your realisation, my knob is bigger than your knob. Ad nauseum. They are almost inevitably used in this manner, so I question their usefulness.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:55 pm

Malcolm wrote: 3. It is superior through its physiology of nāḍīs, vāyus and bindus.

Yup, thats what the sGra thal 'gyur says:

http://www.academia.edu/14013507/The_sh ... erspective

pg. 68-9
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:00 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:[

Is that enough pondering?
.
You have not even begun.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:You have not even begun.
:smile: I notice that you did not answer to my points though. So you are not helping my pondering.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:25 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:You have not even begun.
:smile: I notice that you did not answer to my points though. So you are not helping my pondering.

"Pondering" means learning Dzogchen teachings throughly yourself. Reading Dudjom Rinpoche's Big Red Book will help that goal.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:"Pondering" means learning Dzogchen teachings throughly yourself. Reading Dudjom Rinpoche's Big Red Book will help that goal.
Thanks for the tip. Do you need a lung for that one?

Received lung for Dudjom Rinpoche's "Buddhahood Without Meditation" twice now and plenty of tri, and it still has not shown me any specific points where Dzogchen (the state) differs from the state of Mahamudra. Of course the method has some major differences... especially when you compare Dzogchen method to the gradual method of Gampopa, but in comparison to Ganga Mahamudra, to this ignorant fool, it seems the differences fade into insignificance.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:44 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:"Pondering" means learning Dzogchen teachings throughly yourself. Reading Dudjom Rinpoche's Big Red Book will help that goal.
Thanks for the tip. Do you need a lung for that one?

Received lung for Dudjom Rinpoche's "Buddhahood Without Meditation" twice now and plenty of tri, and it still has not shown me any specific points where Dzogchen (the state) differs from the state of Mahamudra.
The state of Prajñāpāramitā, Mahāmudra, and Mahasandhi are the same; their paths however, different, and of course in my opinion, are respectively more profound. YMMV.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by krodha » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:14 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Received lung for Dudjom Rinpoche's "Buddhahood Without Meditation" twice now
Not to be a pedant, but I believe you mean Dudjom Lingpa.

Buddhahood Without Meditation is the title for the book which is a translation of his Rang bZhin rDzogs pa Chen po'i Rang Zhel mNgon du Byed pa'i gDams pa ma sGom Sangs rGyas bZhugs so.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Kelwin » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.
We've all read lots of texts saying it is superior. And lots of texts saying it is the same/similair. Personally, I like Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's perspective. Does Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme offer any new argument to the conversation that hasn't been translated before? I'd certainly be interested! Summary of the point he makes more than welcome.

He lists six points of superiority:

1. The Great Perfection is superior through its preliminary practice.

2. It is superior through its ripening empowerments.

3. It is superior through its physiology of nāḍīs, vāyus and bindus.

4. It is superior through the great transference rainbow body of the fourth vision of thögal.

5. It is superior through its method.

6. It is superior through its explanation of the measurement of liberation.

Indeed, he finds evidence that Milarepa practiced the preliminaries of the Great Perfection (ever a subject of controversy) in a verse from one of Mila's songs:
  • I, MIlarepa, have gained prowess,
    prowess in the training in awakened mind.
Dudjom Rinpoche more or less cribs his arguments for the superiority of Dzogchen from this source.
Thanks Malcolm! Sounds like these arguments aren't all that different from what we've seen before, right? Not saying I don't agree by the way. I guess I can fill in the blanks for most points, but would certainly be interested in a book that does the full elaboration.

As for the quote by Milarepa, I have no idea why that would refer to the Great Perfection? Is this the specific Tibetan terminology used here?
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

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