Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
Well, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. How is that "cutting through acculturation"? I think you mean something more like "working skillfully with acculturation". In that case, I think there are indeed some Tibetan tantrics who are at least trying to do that for the West, but it's a much trickier thing IMO.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
dzogchungpa wrote:
How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
Well, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. How is that "cutting through acculturation"? I think you mean something more like "working skillfully with acculturation". In that case, I think there are indeed some Tibetan tantrics who are at least trying to do that for the West, but it's a much trickier thing IMO.
Yes skillfully jujitsu the shit. It's trickier bc the whole thing needs to be reassessed out here. Western civ has a world view expressed down to the grammar level. It's all about action. It's very tactile and objective. And individualistic. Everyone gets a trophy, because everyone won in their own way. Everyone's a Jesus. So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
You don't understand these are mythological figures.
There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.
florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
You don't understand these are mythological figures.
There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.
So who is the author or authors who manufactured these mythological figures ?
florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
You don't understand these are mythological figures.
There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.
So who is the author or authors who manufactured these mythological figures ?
One of the funniest most awesome things I've read today.
As an outsider looking in, Tibetan Buddhism, in a lot of ways, is freaking awesome.
Sorry to interject.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.
Norwegian wrote:To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.
It is traditional to reject these terma myths.
Bonpos reject the sectarian myths of Guru Rinpoche purifying Bon.
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Norwegian wrote:To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.
It is traditional to reject these terma myths.
Bonpos reject the sectarian myths of Guru Rinpoche purifying Bon.
Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
I don't think that anyone said that he purified Bön.
What has been said is that Guru Rinpoche further established the Bön that was already pure.