Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

[Thomas Amundsen]

Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.

So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?

[BuddhaFollower]

Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.

So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?

Gelugs used to reject terms myths.

Past tense.

Dalai Lama is a bit Nyingma. Probably a terton.

[Thomas Amundsen]

Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.

So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?

Gelugs used to reject terms myths.

Past tense.

Dalai Lama is a bit Nyingma. Probably a terton.

[Karma_Yeshe]

Personally, I reject only strange women lying in ponds distributing swords--you know, farcical aquatic ceremonies and such.

Personally, I never rejeceted any kind of women

[MiphamFan]

Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.

How are they doing it for China?

Amitovo and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them

Yeah the Tibetans in the Chinese sphere seem to adapt their teachings for that audience, buying into the whole lower tantra purity schtick but is that really what the Indians did in Tibet?

The post-Imperial Tibetans were afraid of the inner tantras and the rhetoric of liberation and union but the Indians went ahead and taught them what they could, they didn't emphasize lower tantra.

[Natan]

How are they doing it for China?

Amitovo and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them

Yeah the Tibetans in the Chinese sphere seem to adapt their teachings for that audience, buying into the whole lower tantra purity schtick but is that really what the Indians did in Tibet?

The post-Imperial Tibetans were afraid of the inner tantras and the rhetoric of liberation and union but the Indians went ahead and taught them what they could, they didn't emphasize lower tantra.

Tibetans were paying good money for every sorcerer's secret. The rest got kadampa, monastic approach.

[MiphamFan]

Some Tibetan lamas who want to teach Chinese emphasize vegetarianism and other stuff which Chinese associate with "Buddhism". This is quite bad for Tibetan nomads, very hard for them to live like that. Jamyang Kyi has written a few essays on this available translated on High Peaks Pure Earth.

[MiphamFan]

Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...

Well, even completely Indian Vajrayana like Cakrasamvara, Hevajra etc failed to survive in India proper. Even the Newaris don't really practise like what the texts say. So you can say the same thing of any sarma lineage too.

[MalaBeads]

Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.

I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?

[Natan]

Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.

I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?

Uses its own momentum against itself.

[MalaBeads]

Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.

I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?

Uses its own momentum against itself.

Thank you.

[heart]

Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"

And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus

[Kelwin]

Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"

And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus

I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.

[Vasana]

Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"

And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus

I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.

I bet there's a third, fourth ,fith choice etc but ' a bit of both' seems most accommodating.

I think that Tantras arising as compassionate expressions from the clarity of one's mind satisfies both the 'human invention' advocates and the 'other' realm advocates. The 'other' realm being the non-deluded mind inseparable from Samanthabhadra, Vajradhara ,Vajrasattva and all of the bijas and mantra garlands of all Deities.

Again, there are probably more options given different contexts.

[Grigoris]

I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.

Is there a difference?

[Kelwin]

I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.

Is there a difference?

Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.

[Malcolm]

I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.

Is there a difference?

Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.

There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.

[Natan]

Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"

And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus

Impermanence is not an invention. For me this sort of discovery is the litmus test of reliability.

[Norwegian]

Is there a difference?

Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.

There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.

Dzogchen translations are always very welcome!

[Virgo]

There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.

Please do!

Kevin