Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:04 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote: To the way things are presented: I mean the "Garland of Views" is not taught by a Tibetan, but by Padmasambhava.
Maybe.
What makes you question the Padmasambahva's authorship?

Even the earliest account of Padmasambhava, the Testament of Ba, is highly mythological.

We know nothing about the historical Padmasambhava.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:09 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:25 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
Well, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. How is that "cutting through acculturation"? I think you mean something more like "working skillfully with acculturation". In that case, I think there are indeed some Tibetan tantrics who are at least trying to do that for the West, but it's a much trickier thing IMO.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:38 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
Well, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. How is that "cutting through acculturation"? I think you mean something more like "working skillfully with acculturation". In that case, I think there are indeed some Tibetan tantrics who are at least trying to do that for the West, but it's a much trickier thing IMO.
Yes skillfully jujitsu the shit. It's trickier bc the whole thing needs to be reassessed out here. Western civ has a world view expressed down to the grammar level. It's all about action. It's very tactile and objective. And individualistic. Everyone gets a trophy, because everyone won in their own way. Everyone's a Jesus. So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:50 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.
*cough* LSD *cough*
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:54 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.
*cough* LSD *cough*
Maybe. Not all whites are hippies you u racist. Some of them even love their children.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:02 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.
*cough* LSD *cough*
Maybe. Not all whites are hippies you u racist. Some of them even love their children.
Good point. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

florin
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by florin » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:11 pm

Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:45 pm

florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
You don't understand these are mythological figures.

There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Sennin
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Sennin » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:47 pm

I'm a silly crazy westerner, I only want the fastest most immediate and direct recipe.
I don't care aboutevery page in the cookbook.
I'm hungry now.
:P :P :cheers: :guns: :P :P :crazy:

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Namo Guru Bhyaḥ

florin
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by florin » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:00 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:
florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
You don't understand these are mythological figures.

There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.
So who is the author or authors who manufactured these mythological figures ?
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:02 pm

florin wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:
florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
You don't understand these are mythological figures.

There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.
So who is the author or authors who manufactured these mythological figures ?
Tertons.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:06 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote: Tertons.
One of the funniest most awesome things I've read today.

As an outsider looking in, Tibetan Buddhism, in a lot of ways, is freaking awesome.

Sorry to interject.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:13 pm

Queequeg wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote: Tertons.
One of the funniest most awesome things I've read today.

As an outsider looking in, Tibetan Buddhism, in a lot of ways, is freaking awesome.

Sorry to interject.
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There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:26 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote: To the way things are presented: I mean the "Garland of Views" is not taught by a Tibetan, but by Padmasambhava.
Maybe.
What makes you question the Padmasambahva's authorship?
Lack of provenance.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Norwegian » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:33 pm

To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:39 am

Norwegian wrote:To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.
It is traditional to reject these terma myths.

Bonpos reject the sectarian myths of Guru Rinpoche purifying Bon.

Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:28 am

Yep.
And some reject Kalacakra.
Some reject all Tantra, entirely.

Some reject Mahayana Sutras.

We should all know this by now, right?


Personally, I reject only strange women lying in ponds distributing swords--you know, farcical aquatic ceremonies and such.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Sādhaka » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:37 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Norwegian wrote:To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.
It is traditional to reject these terma myths.

Bonpos reject the sectarian myths of Guru Rinpoche purifying Bon.

Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
I don't think that anyone said that he purified Bön.

What has been said is that Guru Rinpoche further established the Bön that was already pure.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:58 am

conebeckham wrote:
Personally, I reject only strange women lying in ponds distributing swords--you know, farcical aquatic ceremonies and such.
:rolling:

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