Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby BuddhaFollower » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:04 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote:To the way things are presented: I mean the "Garland of Views" is not taught by a Tibetan, but by Padmasambhava.


Maybe.


What makes you question the Padmasambahva's authorship?



Even the earliest account of Padmasambhava, the Testament of Ba, is highly mythological.

We know nothing about the historical Padmasambhava.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Crazywisdom » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:09 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.

How are they doing it for China?


Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:25 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.

How are they doing it for China?


Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them

Well, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. How is that "cutting through acculturation"? I think you mean something more like "working skillfully with acculturation". In that case, I think there are indeed some Tibetan tantrics who are at least trying to do that for the West, but it's a much trickier thing IMO.
The true condition is beyond numbers. If we think in terms of an "individual being" this means that we are limiting, and consequently everything becomes complicated. If we want to understand, then we must not limit. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Crazywisdom » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:38 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:How are they doing it for China?


Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them

Well, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. How is that "cutting through acculturation"? I think you mean something more like "working skillfully with acculturation". In that case, I think there are indeed some Tibetan tantrics who are at least trying to do that for the West, but it's a much trickier thing IMO.


Yes skillfully jujitsu the shit. It's trickier bc the whole thing needs to be reassessed out here. Western civ has a world view expressed down to the grammar level. It's all about action. It's very tactile and objective. And individualistic. Everyone gets a trophy, because everyone won in their own way. Everyone's a Jesus. So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:50 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.

*cough* LSD *cough*
The true condition is beyond numbers. If we think in terms of an "individual being" this means that we are limiting, and consequently everything becomes complicated. If we want to understand, then we must not limit. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Crazywisdom » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:54 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.

*cough* LSD *cough*


Maybe. Not all whites are hippies you u racist. Some of them even love their children.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:02 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.

*cough* LSD *cough*


Maybe. Not all whites are hippies you u racist. Some of them even love their children.


Good point. :smile:
The true condition is beyond numbers. If we think in terms of an "individual being" this means that we are limiting, and consequently everything becomes complicated. If we want to understand, then we must not limit. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby florin » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:11 pm

Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby BuddhaFollower » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:45 pm

florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...


You don't understand these are mythological figures.

There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby KrisW » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:47 pm

I'm a silly crazy westerner, I only want the fastest most immediate and direct recipe.
I don't care aboutevery page in the cookbook.
I'm hungry now.
:P :P :cheers: :guns: :P :P :crazy:

:focus:

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby florin » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:00 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:
florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...


You don't understand these are mythological figures.

There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.


So who is the author or authors who manufactured these mythological figures ?
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby BuddhaFollower » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:02 pm

florin wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:
florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...


You don't understand these are mythological figures.

There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.


So who is the author or authors who manufactured these mythological figures ?


Tertons.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Queequeg » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:06 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:Tertons.


One of the funniest most awesome things I've read today.

As an outsider looking in, Tibetan Buddhism, in a lot of ways, is freaking awesome.

Sorry to interject.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:13 pm

Queequeg wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Tertons.


One of the funniest most awesome things I've read today.

As an outsider looking in, Tibetan Buddhism, in a lot of ways, is freaking awesome.

Sorry to interject.


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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:26 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote:To the way things are presented: I mean the "Garland of Views" is not taught by a Tibetan, but by Padmasambhava.


Maybe.


What makes you question the Padmasambahva's authorship?


Lack of provenance.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Norwegian » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:33 pm

To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby BuddhaFollower » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:39 am

Norwegian wrote:To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.


It is traditional to reject these terma myths.

Bonpos reject the sectarian myths of Guru Rinpoche purifying Bon.

Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby conebeckham » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:28 am

Yep.
And some reject Kalacakra.
Some reject all Tantra, entirely.

Some reject Mahayana Sutras.

We should all know this by now, right?


Personally, I reject only strange women lying in ponds distributing swords--you know, farcical aquatic ceremonies and such.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Sādhaka » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:37 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Norwegian wrote:To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.


It is traditional to reject these terma myths.

Bonpos reject the sectarian myths of Guru Rinpoche purifying Bon.

Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.


I don't think that anyone said that he purified Bön.

What has been said is that Guru Rinpoche further established the Bön that was already pure.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby tomamundsen » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:58 am

conebeckham wrote:
Personally, I reject only strange women lying in ponds distributing swords--you know, farcical aquatic ceremonies and such.

:rolling:


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