Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:59 am

BuddhaFollower wrote: Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:08 am

tomamundsen wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote: Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?
Gelugs used to reject terms myths.

Past tense.

Dalai Lama is a bit Nyingma. Probably a terton.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:21 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote: Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?
Gelugs used to reject terms myths.

Past tense.

Dalai Lama is a bit Nyingma. Probably a terton.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:46 am

conebeckham wrote:

Personally, I reject only strange women lying in ponds distributing swords--you know, farcical aquatic ceremonies and such.
Personally, I never rejeceted any kind of women :mrgreen:

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:01 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
Yeah the Tibetans in the Chinese sphere seem to adapt their teachings for that audience, buying into the whole lower tantra purity schtick but is that really what the Indians did in Tibet?

The post-Imperial Tibetans were afraid of the inner tantras and the rhetoric of liberation and union but the Indians went ahead and taught them what they could, they didn't emphasize lower tantra.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:19 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
Yeah the Tibetans in the Chinese sphere seem to adapt their teachings for that audience, buying into the whole lower tantra purity schtick but is that really what the Indians did in Tibet?

The post-Imperial Tibetans were afraid of the inner tantras and the rhetoric of liberation and union but the Indians went ahead and taught them what they could, they didn't emphasize lower tantra.
Tibetans were paying good money for every sorcerer's secret. The rest got kadampa, monastic approach.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:43 am

Some Tibetan lamas who want to teach Chinese emphasize vegetarianism and other stuff which Chinese associate with "Buddhism". This is quite bad for Tibetan nomads, very hard for them to live like that. Jamyang Kyi has written a few essays on this available translated on High Peaks Pure Earth.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:36 am

florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
Well, even completely Indian Vajrayana like Cakrasamvara, Hevajra etc failed to survive in India proper. Even the Newaris don't really practise like what the texts say. So you can say the same thing of any sarma lineage too.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by MalaBeads » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:01 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:04 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?
Uses its own momentum against itself.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by MalaBeads » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:53 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?
Uses its own momentum against itself.
Thank you.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by heart » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:06 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"
And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Kelwin » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:35 pm

heart wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"
And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus
I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Vasana » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:42 pm

Kelwin wrote:
heart wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"
And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus
I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
I bet there's a third, fourth ,fith choice etc but ' a bit of both' seems most accommodating.

I think that Tantras arising as compassionate expressions from the clarity of one's mind satisfies both the 'human invention' advocates and the 'other' realm advocates. The 'other' realm being the non-deluded mind inseparable from Samanthabhadra, Vajradhara ,Vajrasattva and all of the bijas and mantra garlands of all Deities.

Again, there are probably more options given different contexts.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:55 pm

Kelwin wrote:I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
Is there a difference?
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Kelwin » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:23 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Kelwin wrote:I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
Is there a difference?
Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:52 am

Kelwin wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Kelwin wrote:I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
Is there a difference?
Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.
There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:55 am

heart wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"
And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus
Impermanence is not an invention. For me this sort of discovery is the litmus test of reliability.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Norwegian » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:36 am

Malcolm wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Is there a difference?
Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.
There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.
Dzogchen translations are always very welcome! :)

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Virgo » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:25 am

Malcolm wrote: There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.
Please do!

Kevin

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