Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:03 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Malcolm wrote:ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole.



Then why did he want his son to go to the monastery he is the tulku of?


He has genuine confidence in his son being the incarnation of his uncle. But that does not mean he has confidence in all, or even most, reincarnations.
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krodha
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby krodha » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:10 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Malcolm wrote:ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole.

Then why did he want his son to go to the monastery he is the tulku of?

Rinpoche has said numerous times that there are genuine tulkus out there, but they are very few and far between. For the most part he regards the vast majority of so-called tulkus to be political puppets.

As for the legitimacy of his own status as a tulku, I personally don't doubt it for a second.

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Grigoris
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:I gave you a reference in a book so you could decide for yourself how to understand these things. I did not tell you to go off and ask Orgyen Tenzin how to understand these things.
The book is written by a Tibetan lama too, yah know? ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:10 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:I gave you a reference in a book so you could decide for yourself how to understand these things. I did not tell you to go off and ask Orgyen Tenzin how to understand these things.
The book is written by a Tibetan lama too, yah know? ;)


I mentioned that book in order that you could discover the substance of the six points since I do not have time to translate Lhatsun's book at the present time. It is not a high priority for me. Read or don't read it --- it really depends on how much you want to know about Dzogchen.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby BuddhaFollower » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:
Malcolm wrote:ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole.



Then why did he want his son to go to the monastery he is the tulku of?


He has genuine confidence in his son being the incarnation of his uncle. But that does not mean he has confidence in all, or even most, reincarnations.



You were just arguing tulkus were not literal reincarnations, which I agree with.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Grigoris » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:20 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:You were just arguing tulkus were not literal reincarnations, which I agree with.
Actually, in regards to ChNN's son, he just argued that he is a literal reincarnation.
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Kelwin
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Kelwin » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:20 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Actually, in regards to ChNN's son, he just argued that he is a literal reincarnation.
To paraphrase yourself.. Quite obviously you do not understand the nature of reincarnation. :tongue:

A 'literal' reincarnation is still not very solid. May or may not have memories, qualities, activities, etc. Even if those more or less continue, it's still a different person.

:focus:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:00 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:

Then why did he want his son to go to the monastery he is the tulku of?


He has genuine confidence in his son being the incarnation of his uncle. But that does not mean he has confidence in all, or even most, reincarnations.



You were just arguing tulkus were not literal reincarnations, which I agree with.


No, I was not arguing that. Some tulkus, like ChNN are reincarnations of the people they were recognized as. But not very many.
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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:02 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:You were just arguing tulkus were not literal reincarnations, which I agree with.
Actually, in regards to ChNN's son, he just argued that he is a literal reincarnation.


I stated that ChNN believes it is so.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Grigoris » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:40 pm

Kelwin wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Actually, in regards to ChNN's son, he just argued that he is a literal reincarnation.
To paraphrase yourself.. Quite obviously you do not understand the nature of reincarnation. :tongue:

A 'literal' reincarnation is still not very solid. May or may not have memories, qualities, activities, etc. Even if those more or less continue, it's still a different person.

:focus:
Like I said: every person is a different person following every passing moment.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby javier.espinoza.t » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:55 pm

Kelwin wrote:Lama Lena gave this very simple and direct summary:

In Dzogchen we recognize the nature of mind. Whenever we don't recognize it, we cut through to the essence, until we recognize it again.
In Mahamudra we recognize the nature of mind. Whenever we don't recognize it, we pray to the lama for blessing, until we recognize it again.


Needless to say, both practices can be integrated. Of course we cut through to the essence in Mahamudra as well, and pray to the lama for blessing in Dzogchen as well.


wonderfull, definitly wonderfull. Now i understand the mahasiddhas attitude, thanks to you muy friend.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby oldbob » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:58 pm

:good: Good postings all! :cheers:

http://www.ktgrinpoche.org/

http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Ascertainin ... /10590.htm

Reading ACAV is ike eating marzipan - take small bites.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Vr_iPEviQ

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss ... d+dzogchen

My 2 cents.

It's complicated. The views are explained in written and spoken words above, and this is one thing. Taking transmission from an actual living lineage Master is something else. In the state beyond words, there is nothing to be said (or even can be said) so all questions of same or different are resolved.

Yet, there seems to be a subtle "flavor" difference in the transmission from each Master. This is a felt, or sensed, difference; not a difference of understanding or view.

The complication comes from the fact that most Masters of each tradition have taken transmission from the other, and so in their "flavor" of Dzogchen or Mahamudra, the flavors are integrated. That said, perhaps a lineage Master can give the transmission (flavor) as appropriate to each recipient.

So, perhaps it is like gelato (ice cream). Some people prefer plain vanilla and some (as I do) like "fruit of the woods." There are many flavors.

http://www.italylogue.com/food-drink/it ... coded.html

It is up to you. If you want to understand the differences in words then study the words. If you want to experience the different flavors, then take transmission from different lineages.

:heart:


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