Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:28 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
Malcolm wrote: While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings.
While I have the utmost respect for Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, and have no doubt that he is a Vidyadhara, this is just silly. He is not the only one alive today.

Pretty much. Who else is there? Seriously. Note I said "Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings." I did not say he was the only person from whom one could receive Dzogchen teachings. Unless you have directly studied with him, it is impossible to comprehend just how vast and deep his knowledge and realization of Dzogchen teachings are and how completely different his presentation of Dzogchen is from everyone else.
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by heart » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.
I think you limit yourself in an unnecessary way there Malcolm, in fact I know you do.

/magnus
You are missing the point, my friend. What I am saying is that people chase after this sadhana and that sadhana and miss the chance to meet a great master. There was once this guy who went to Nepal, and because he did not know who Tulku Orgyen was, missed a chance to go see him because he was more interested in Lamdre. I think you know who I am talking about.

M
Ok, I understand that, but ChNNR isn't the only Vidydhara alive. I am very sure of that.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by heart » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Malcolm wrote: While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings.
While I have the utmost respect for Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, and have no doubt that he is a Vidyadhara, this is just silly. He is not the only one alive today.

Pretty much. Who else is there? Seriously. Note I said "Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings." I did not say he was the only person from whom one could receive Dzogchen teachings. Unless you have directly studied with him, it is impossible to comprehend just how vast and deep his knowledge and realization of Dzogchen teachings are and how completely different his presentation of Dzogchen is from everyone else.
Different isn't necessary bad, in fact it can be a good thing.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:00 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
While I have the utmost respect for Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, and have no doubt that he is a Vidyadhara, this is just silly. He is not the only one alive today.

Pretty much. Who else is there? Seriously. Note I said "Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings." I did not say he was the only person from whom one could receive Dzogchen teachings. Unless you have directly studied with him, it is impossible to comprehend just how vast and deep his knowledge and realization of Dzogchen teachings are and how completely different his presentation of Dzogchen is from everyone else.
Different isn't necessary bad, in fact it can be a good thing.

/magnus

You have taken many teachings with ChNN. So you know what I am talking about. People who have not met him cannot really comprehend what they are missing.
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Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by heart » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Pretty much. Who else is there? Seriously. Note I said "Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings." I did not say he was the only person from whom one could receive Dzogchen teachings. Unless you have directly studied with him, it is impossible to comprehend just how vast and deep his knowledge and realization of Dzogchen teachings are and how completely different his presentation of Dzogchen is from everyone else.
Different isn't necessary bad, in fact it can be a good thing.

/magnus

You have taken many teachings with ChNN. So you know what I am talking about. People who have not met him cannot really comprehend what they are missing.
He is certainly special, with an unique approach. I love him very much, but he isn't the only one.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Pretty much. Who else is there? Seriously. Note I said "Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings." I did not say he was the only person from whom one could receive Dzogchen teachings. Unless you have directly studied with him, it is impossible to comprehend just how vast and deep his knowledge and realization of Dzogchen teachings are and how completely different his presentation of Dzogchen is from everyone else.
Different isn't necessary bad, in fact it can be a good thing.

/magnus

You have taken many teachings with ChNN. So you know what I am talking about. People who have not met him cannot really comprehend what they are missing.
So you recommend ChNN?
Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by oldbob » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:33 am

Malcolm's point is a good one.

When I think of the Dzogchen Masters who are no longer here, that I made the effort to meet: maybe they (in the timeless state beyond description, that they communicate by direct introduction) are Dzogchen, and their not being here in a temporary body anymore, is the two truths.

Perhaps this is the Doctrine of Dzogchen and the two truths!

So I echo Malcolm's advice - while you still can, make the effort to meet one of the old ones who is still alive and teaching!

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8917

Death is impermanent.

:heart:

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by lelopa » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:51 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Different isn't necessary bad, in fact it can be a good thing.

/magnus

You have taken many teachings with ChNN. So you know what I am talking about. People who have not met him cannot really comprehend what they are missing.
So you recommend ChNN?

:zzz:
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by srivijaya » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:41 pm

Mkoll wrote:
srivijaya wrote:historical Buddha
Them's fightin' words on this DW, friend. Tread carefully.

;)
Hey! Okay, I get the message - don't beat me up guys! :tongue:

On the OP though, the Two Truths Doctrine differs from *ahem* other Buddhism on a fundamental point (can't speak for Dzogchen though).

Briefly, Two Truths postulates a mistaken grasp of phenomena (ie. inherently existing). It sees the solution to this problem as breaking this illusion and seeing the underlying "nature" of self and other, as being emptiness. Furthermore emptiness gets called the ultimate state, which is a bit odd when you consider it carefully. Emptiness being the absence of inherent existence, rather than a "state" itself. Even the formulation 'form is empty, emptiness is form', equates the two. Equivalents cannot have one ultimate and the other not - it's like saying one half is larger than the other half. Quite how much of the Two Truths overlaps with Dzogchen, I have no idea, so if anyone can chip in, that would be great.

Other Buddhism does not assign categories of existence or non-existence to self and other, rather the actual process of grasping is seen and relinquished as it happens. No metaphysics are involved or needed, thus the descent into release accords with reality. What need of doctrines when that which is revealed transcends all categories?

:buddha2: = Original Buddha btw (not the fat guy).

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:51 pm

srivijaya wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
srivijaya wrote:historical Buddha
Them's fightin' words on this DW, friend. Tread carefully.

;)
Hey! Okay, I get the message - don't beat me up guys! :tongue:

On the OP though, the Two Truths Doctrine differs from *ahem* other Buddhism on a fundamental point (can't speak for Dzogchen though).

Briefly, Two Truths postulates a mistaken grasp of phenomena (ie. inherently existing). It sees the solution to this problem as breaking this illusion and seeing the underlying "nature" of self and other, as being emptiness. Furthermore emptiness gets called the ultimate state, which is a bit odd when you consider it carefully. Emptiness being the absence of inherent existence, rather than a "state" itself. Even the formulation 'form is empty, emptiness is form', equates the two. Equivalents cannot have one ultimate and the other not - it's like saying one half is larger than the other half. Quite how much of the Two Truths overlaps with Dzogchen, I have no idea, so if anyone can chip in, that would be great.
There are no two truths since even delusion is an expression of reality.
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Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by srivijaya » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
srivijaya wrote:
Mkoll wrote:There are no two truths since even delusion is an expression of reality.
Very much so.

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:21 pm

srivijaya wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
srivijaya wrote:
Very much so.

The classical notion of the two truths hinges on vidyā and āvidyā being different, the former veridical and the latter false. But in fact vidyā and avidyā are just opposite sides of one coin, or even avidyā has vidyā.
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Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Penor » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:51 am

From Tulku Thondups introduction to the Choying Dzo

"Dzogpa Chenpo's view of freedom from extremes is similar to Prasangika-Madhyamaka's for the most part. [The main difference is that] the important basic view of Madhyamaka is of a spacelike empty aspect, while the principal basic view [of Dzogpa Chenpo] is of primordially pure and naked intrinsic awareness, which is ineffable and unceasing. According to Dzogpa Chenpo, intrinsic awareness and everything that arises within it are free from all extremes, like the [nonexistence of] limits to space." Longchen Rabjam


"Choying Dzod and other [Dzogpa Chen po] sources praise the view of Prasangika-Madhyamaka. So [Dzogpa Chenpo] is in accord with Prasangika regarding the definition of the limits to the object-of-negation (dgag bya'i mtshams 'dzin). However, in Prasangika-having separated the aspects (ldog ch' a) of appearances and emptiness by distinguishing the particularities (spu ris) of each or by separating the emptiness aspect [from the apparent aspect]-one apprehends the aspect of emptiness that is a nonaffirming negation (med dgag). This is a method of maintaining [the view] using concepts. It also asserts that after conceptually distinguishing between them and gaining experiences [of it] in meditation, one attains what is called "the fruition of the blissful, clear, and nonconceptual intellect." The Third Dodrupchen

Also read HH Dalai Lama 's explanation of the two truths in relation to dzogchen.

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Temicco » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:53 pm

Malcolm wrote: As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.
What makes one a vidyadhara exactly? Rigpawiki seems to say 2 different things; DKR saying that it's one who is in rigpa constantly, and Longchenpa dividing it up over the five paths.
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Just get rid of delusive attachments, and merge with realization of thusness."
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Lukeinaz » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:23 am

It seems as though the two truths do exist here. First we learn how everything, all phenomena, is illusory. This is our relative condition.

Then we learn how everything is manifest from our primordial potential. Our ultimate or real condition.

How is it then that the two truths don't exist?
What a joy when the gentle rain comes on time.
What a joy when the crops ripen in the fields.
What a joy if bodhicitta were to be produced
in the minds of living beings equal to space.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by smcj » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:29 am

But in fact vidyā and avidyā are just opposite sides of one coin, or even avidyā has vidyā.
I think you can in the same way say that truth is not dependent on falsehood at all, but that falsehood is a truth that is hidden, disguised or in some other way unseen.

Sound good? :shrug:
In the Tantra of the Beautiful Auspiciousness (bKra shis mdzes ldan gyi rgyud), this "Great Primordial Purity" (spyi gzhi) is defined as follows:

What is known as "The Great Primordial Purity”
Is the state abiding before authentic Buddhas arose
And before impure sentient beings appeared;
It is called the great Primordial radiance of immutable awareness.

*****
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In the strangest of places
If you look at it right.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:53 am

Malcolm wrote:While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings.
While I can understand your devotion, statements like this are a tad embarrassing and tend to point towards a form of personality (cult) worship. This will lead to all sorts of problems when ChNN (long life and good health to him) dies. You are setting yourself up for a really nasty fall my friend.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Malcolm » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:54 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings.
While I can understand your devotion, statements like this are a tad embarrassing and tend to point towards a form of personality (cult) worship.
In this case, no, not on my part. It is based on the recognition of the master who really brought Dzogchen teachings to the west (hint: it wasn't Trungpa, Dudjom, etc.).
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Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:18 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:It seems as though the two truths do exist here. First we learn how everything, all phenomena, is illusory. This is our relative condition.

Then we learn how everything is manifest from our primordial potential. Our ultimate or real condition.

How is it then that the two truths don't exist?
Because this is a false dichotomy, that seems to imply that relative and ultimate reality are two separate states of being when, in fact, they are not.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings.
While I can understand your devotion, statements like this are a tad embarrassing and tend to point towards a form of personality (cult) worship.
In this case, no, not on my part. It is based on the recognition of the master who really brought Dzogchen teachings to the west (hint: it wasn't Trungpa, Dudjom, etc.).
I don't really understand this response. Are you saying that, e.g., Dudjom Rinpoche was not the master who really brought Dzogchen teachings to the west and therefore he was not a Vidyādhara?
Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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