"highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

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binocular
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by binocular »

Vasana wrote:Binocular, you are very difficult to communicate with so this will likely be my last attempt for some time.
I think you are very difficult to communicate with.
We were explicitly talking about the teachings on egotism, remember?? You bought it up.There are very clear translations of the Tripitika out there that can be undetstood without lots of subjective meaning superimposed on them. Teachings on egotism are not in competition. You're so misinformed that you don't even realize thats a possibility.
What I'm not doing is mindlessly going with the program. I'm not "misinformed". I'm not submissive enough to be able to be religious.
And thank you, you keep proving my points.
Have it.
binocular
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by binocular »

Sprouticus wrote:What, then, is the corrective? How can we sidestep this pitfall?
(Have you looked at the Dunning-Kruger Effect I linked to earlier?)

By consciously making an effort not to talk or act beyond one's competence and jurisdiction.
Doing so, however, can prove to be alienating and make one a misfit.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

binocular wrote: What I'm not doing is mindlessly going with the program. I'm not "misinformed". I'm not submissive enough to be able to be religious.
And thank you, you keep proving my points.
Have it.

I have to say, I find it odd when people with no interest in Buddhadharma hang around Buddhist sites. Don't you think your time would be better spent on sites where others share your interests? Just a thought.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by binocular »

Malcolm wrote:I have to say, I find it odd when people with no interest in Buddhadharma hang around Buddhist sites. Don't you think your time would be better spent on sites where others share your interests? Just a thought.
I think our ideas about what constitutes or what could constitute the Buddhadharma are so vastly different as to be incompatible.
So much so that you think I have no interest in the Buddhadharma. I dare say you are very wrong on that point.

I have little interest in some interpretations of the buddhadharma, indeed. But since I am unsure of the final version of the Buddhadharma, and since the proponents of some interpretations are so loud, I expect them to convince me of their rightness. Which they resent, oddly enough.

If they're all so advanced and have it all figured out, then it shouldn't be hard for them to clarify things for me the way the Buddha did for Saccaka.


Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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dzogchungpa
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by dzogchungpa »

binocular wrote:Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
:popcorn:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote:
madhusudan wrote:Since sentient beings are as infinite as space, the Buddha's compassionate teachings are also infinite, but can be categorized into 84,000 kinds depending on beings' needs. I would guess that those who see no need for the lower teachings are usually those who need them the most.

One thing I find kinda funny is that it is said that for practitioners of the highest faculty, the title of a teaching is enough to intuit the full meaning. The rest of the explanation, then, is for those that didn't "get it" and need further help. So, are the highest teachings spelled out for the slow pokes who just couldn't get to the other shore from madhyamaka, bodhicitta, or the 4 noble truths for that matter?

I'm a very basic practitioner, but I always thought the goal was to practice the 9 yanas simultaneously. Like, keeping the highest view but still minding your Ps and Qs.
Each of the nine yānas is in independent, self-sufficient vehicle. Otherwise, there is no point in calling them individual "vehicles."

The actual name is Theg pa rim dgu, the nine progressive vehicles. The implication of this however is not that one learns for example, śrāvakayāna, then one moves on to pratyekabuddhayāna, etc. The intention of this is that higher vehicles embrace the intention of the lower vehicles. Thus, if you have been introduced to Dzogchen teachings, there is no need to practice common Mahāyāna since the intention of common Mahāyāna is fully included in the vehicle of Atiyoga. It is not the case however that the lower vehicles can encompass the higher vehicles, because the view and practice of the nine progressive vehicles moves from lower to higher. It is generally regarded as a downfall to prefer to practice a lower vehicle having been introduced to the practices of a higher vehicle: for example, preferring to observe one's pratimokśa vows rather than breaking them to benefit another according to Mahāyāna vows.

I get that, but:

Where do you draw the distiction then, there are lots if Dzogchen practitioners practicing Anuyoga, Kriya yoga, maybe some shine etc. What are the criteria for doing these as a Dzogchenpa, rather than adopting a lower vehicles view?

Certainly, Dzogchen curricula are organized by teachers with the expectation that some students will sometimes need something other than Dzogchen proper.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by ClearblueSky »

binocular wrote:
Sprouticus wrote:What, then, is the corrective? How can we sidestep this pitfall?
(Have you looked at the Dunning-Kruger Effect I linked to earlier?)

By consciously making an effort not to talk or act beyond one's competence and jurisdiction.
Doing so, however, can prove to be alienating and make one a misfit.
Just to be clear, what I was referring to is not necessarily the Dunning-Kruger Effect (though it could be an example of it). A lot of people who lean towards that type of reductionism don't necessarily think they are advanced practitioners. It is more a case of lacking understanding of the Dharma overall, and even if they know they are not advanced, they don't know how they should/can remedy it. Someone can also think "I'm a bad practitioner, so I just need to tell myself that everything is empty a lot more often I guess!". That might not be the antidote that's appropriate for them, but it's all they know, or they think it's all that's important.

Personally, I think one way to sidestep it is to study things that describe the goal and basics, not just "higher" texts. For example Words of My Perfect Teacher or Jewel Ornament of Liberation, which both discuss many basic Buddhist tenants as well as Mahamudra/Dzogchen.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Where do you draw the distiction then, there are lots if Dzogchen practitioners practicing Anuyoga, Kriya yoga, maybe some shine etc.
These are secondary practices for overcoming relative problems. But they are not practices proper to the Dzogchen path.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Where do you draw the distiction then, there are lots if Dzogchen practitioners practicing Anuyoga, Kriya yoga, maybe some shine etc.
These are secondary practices for overcoming relative problems. But they are not practices proper to the Dzogchen path.
When you understand the view of Dzogchen all practices will aim you in that direction, so even if they are not formally Dzogchen practices they do become a part of your Dzogchen practice. If it wasn't like that nothing would make much sense.

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: If it wasn't like that nothing would make much sense.

It isn't like that. For example, the short thun is not a Dzogchen practice, nor is the medium thun, nor the long thun, nor the invocation to the protectors and so on. These are all secondary practices, but they are not Dzogchen practice per se.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: If it wasn't like that nothing would make much sense.

It isn't like that. For example, the short thun is not a Dzogchen practice, nor is the medium thun, nor the long thun, nor the invocation to the protectors and so on. These are all secondary practices, but they are not Dzogchen practice per se.
Maybe they are not "Dzogchen practice per se", even if there are a number of sadhanas that are said to be Dzogchen sadhanas ,but it will be pretty difficult to take the Dzogchen out of the practitioner in order to apply a Anuyoga practice.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: If it wasn't like that nothing would make much sense.

It isn't like that. For example, the short thun is not a Dzogchen practice, nor is the medium thun, nor the long thun, nor the invocation to the protectors and so on. These are all secondary practices, but they are not Dzogchen practice per se.
Maybe they are not "Dzogchen practice per se", even if there are a number of sadhanas that are said to be Dzogchen sadhanas ,but it will be pretty difficult to take the Dzogchen out of the practitioner in order to apply a Anuyoga practice.

/magnus

Anuyoga is a special case because it's explanation of the basis is the same as the Great Perfection. However, even Anuyoga practice is not Dzogchen since it regards Dzogchen as something to attain. This is why it is classed as part of the 8 lower vehicles. Practices like Chetsun Nyinthig, Thigle Gyachan, etc., are not Dzogchen practices. Even these practices with very nice words, and so on, are part of the indirect approach to Dzogchen teachings. They approach the main practices of Dzogchen as a completion stage. But the two stages do not exist in Dzogchen per se.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by amanitamusc »

Secondary practices including the 8 lower yanas are not Dzogchen but they can be practiced with the Dzogchen view.

Just has we try to integrate the body,speech and mind in daily life with Dzogchen.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

binocular wrote:
If they're all so advanced and have it all figured out, then it shouldn't be hard for them to clarify things for me the way the Buddha did for Saccaka.

Seems to me you are trying to start a fire with a wet log.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

amanitamusc wrote:Secondary practices including the 8 lower yanas are not Dzogchen but they can be practiced with the Dzogchen view.
Which means we understand that for us they are not the main path.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by amanitamusc »

Malcolm wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:Secondary practices including the 8 lower yanas are not Dzogchen but they can be practiced with the Dzogchen view.
Which means we understand that for us they are not the main path.
Certainly,but we practice them according to how one feels,working with circumstances.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

It isn't like that. For example, the short thun is not a Dzogchen practice, nor is the medium thun, nor the long thun, nor the invocation to the protectors and so on. These are all secondary practices, but they are not Dzogchen practice per se.
Maybe they are not "Dzogchen practice per se", even if there are a number of sadhanas that are said to be Dzogchen sadhanas ,but it will be pretty difficult to take the Dzogchen out of the practitioner in order to apply a Anuyoga practice.

/magnus

Anuyoga is a special case because it's explanation of the basis is the same as the Great Perfection. However, even Anuyoga practice is not Dzogchen since it regards Dzogchen as something to attain. This is why it is classed as part of the 8 lower vehicles. Practices like Chetsun Nyinthig, Thigle Gyachan, etc., are not Dzogchen practices. Even these practices with very nice words, and so on, are part of the indirect approach to Dzogchen teachings. They approach the main practices of Dzogchen as a completion stage. But the two stages do not exist in Dzogchen per se.
Tulu Urgyen Rinpoche often said this: "The Mahayoga teachings are combined within Anu yoga, the Anu yoga are combined within Ati yoga, the Ati yoga are combined within sadhana, and sadhana is combined within one’s application." I think it makes a lot of sense.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Tulu Urgyen Rinpoche often said this: "The Mahayoga teachings are combined within Anu yoga, the Anu yoga are combined within Ati yoga, the Ati yoga are combined within sadhana, and sadhana is combined within one’s application." I think it makes a lot of sense.
This nothing other than the indirect approach to Dzogchen practice.

The point is that when one is engaged in Dzogchen practice there is no Mahāyoga, no Anuyoga.

Practicing secondary practices with Dzogchen view is the indirect approach indicated by Mañjuśrimitra, and later, by Rongzom in chapter six of his Intro to Mahāyāna.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Tulu Urgyen Rinpoche often said this: "The Mahayoga teachings are combined within Anu yoga, the Anu yoga are combined within Ati yoga, the Ati yoga are combined within sadhana, and sadhana is combined within one’s application." I think it makes a lot of sense.
This nothing other than the indirect approach to Dzogchen practice.

The point is that when one is engaged in Dzogchen practice there is no Mahāyoga, no Anuyoga.

Practicing secondary practices with Dzogchen view is the indirect approach indicated by Mañjuśrimitra, and later, by Rongzom in chapter six of his Intro to Mahāyāna.
Even if it is an indirect approach to Dzogchen, it still is an approach. Reading the Rongzom book right now.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Tulu Urgyen Rinpoche often said this: "The Mahayoga teachings are combined within Anu yoga, the Anu yoga are combined within Ati yoga, the Ati yoga are combined within sadhana, and sadhana is combined within one’s application." I think it makes a lot of sense.
This nothing other than the indirect approach to Dzogchen practice.

The point is that when one is engaged in Dzogchen practice there is no Mahāyoga, no Anuyoga.

Practicing secondary practices with Dzogchen view is the indirect approach indicated by Mañjuśrimitra, and later, by Rongzom in chapter six of his Intro to Mahāyāna.
Even if it is an indirect approach to Dzogchen, it still is an approach. Reading the Rongzom book right now.

/magnus

Yes, but let us be very clear what we are doing and how such approaches deviate from the approach the Great Perfection itself.
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