Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

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Tenma
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Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by Tenma » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:27 am

Okay, I've read that Dorje Yudronma should be realized by now and would either be enlightened or a high bodhisattva. However, from other teachings, I've found that she is not to be practiced for common students with empowerment. If she is enlightened, wouldn't it be safe to recite her mantra? Although I'm still confused on her visualization, would it be alright to do her practice? as she is also a form of Tingi Shalzangma, a retinue of unenlightened Tseringma and enlightened Palden Lhamo, I am not too sure if she is enlightened or not and safe or not.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:32 am

I can't really speak to your question but...
I personally think that it is best for a person to just do the mantras they were taught.
Worship the same deities that one's family and teachers worship. Why recite mantras found in a book or online? Isn't it much bebetr to recite the mantras one's has been taught and instructed to recite by their teachers?
But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.
(I learned that expression here on the wheel)

On the other hand, thinking about it more, if a person hears stories of a deity and they feel some affinity or they hear of a deity being particularly efficacious then it would seem natural for them to want to worship that deity. After all that is how these things spread right?

Since I haven't aaddressed the question in your post, I probably shouldn't have commented. Please forgive me.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:46 pm

Tenma wrote:Okay, I've read that Dorje Yudronma should be realized by now and would either be enlightened or a high bodhisattva. However, from other teachings, I've found that she is not to be practiced for common students with empowerment. If she is enlightened, wouldn't it be safe to recite her mantra? Although I'm still confused on her visualization, would it be alright to do her practice? as she is also a form of Tingi Shalzangma, a retinue of unenlightened Tseringma and enlightened Palden Lhamo, I am not too sure if she is enlightened or not and safe or not.
Are you a student of ChNN?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Tenma
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Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by Tenma » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:37 am

No, I'm afraid not.


Tenma
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Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by Tenma » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:13 pm

Okay, thank you. I now understand she is safe, however, I heard that she has a wrathful form which takes trance in an oracle by the name of Mrs. Dolkar:
https://books.google.com/books?id=rDvqD ... ar&f=false
Ia there by any chance, a thangka or image of this wrathful form or perhaps in a mandala I can find the description in? I have been trying to visualize her peaceful form properly in two different ways, one with mirror in right and arrow in left, and another with arrow to left and flask to right. I'm not too sure which one is correct, especially whether to use pale robes or colored robes while also trying to find out the wrathful form. As she is the leader of the Tenma, I am interested to see what her wrathful form looks like.

Norwegian
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Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by Norwegian » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:03 am

Tenma wrote:Okay, thank you. I now understand she is safe, however, I heard that she has a wrathful form which takes trance in an oracle by the name of Mrs. Dolkar:
https://books.google.com/books?id=rDvqD ... ar&f=false
Ia there by any chance, a thangka or image of this wrathful form or perhaps in a mandala I can find the description in? I have been trying to visualize her peaceful form properly in two different ways, one with mirror in right and arrow in left, and another with arrow to left and flask to right. I'm not too sure which one is correct, especially whether to use pale robes or colored robes while also trying to find out the wrathful form. As she is the leader of the Tenma, I am interested to see what her wrathful form looks like.
All of these questions you should direct to your teacher from whom you received the instructions on practice.

crazy-man
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Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by crazy-man » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:37 am

Dorje Yudronma, (Vajra Turquoise Lamp) the Longchen Nyinthig lineage-protector who bears an arrow tied with five-coloured silks in her right hand and a divination mirror in her left. In the life of yogi, Jigme Gyalwai Nyugu, she appeared when he was starving and offered him food.
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... eities.htm

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu: The Longsal Divination of Dorje Yudronma
https://www.ssi-austria.at/shop/chogyal ... -dice.html
Dorje Yudronma is one of the 12 Tenma (Wyl. bstan ma) goddesses, and considered by many sources to be the head of the Tenma. One of her epithets is “The Turquoise Lamp, mistress of the Tenma goddesses [who] protect Tibet” (bod skyong brtan ma’i gtrso mo g.yu yi sgron).
Some sources consider her to be a form of Ralchigma/Ekajati. Yudronma is especially associated with her famous mirror divination rites. Lama Dawa Chöddak Rinpoche is perhaps the most well-known contemporary master of this form of mirror divination. Tsoknyi Rinpoche, with whom Tara Mandala has a close relationship, has a special connection with Dorje Yudronma (a connection shared with his late father, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche), and erected a shrine to her at his retreat center in Crestone, CO. Yudronma has a radiant white body, wears a white dress and turquoise headdress. While various
sources report different hand implements, she is most commonly described as holding a jewel in her right hand and a silver divination mirror in her left hand. She is adorned with wreaths of turquoise, gold, and flowers.
http://taramandala.org/wp-content/uploa ... ission.pdf
Mrs. Dolkar is also known by the spiritual title of Lhamo. "A lhamo is a type of traditional Tibetan oracle who can temporarily embody deities, who enable her to perform shamanic healing and divination work." (Shaman's Drum, number 45) The diety that possesses Mrs. Dolkar is called Dorje Yudronma, and is a pre-Buddhist Tibetan mountain deity that was incorporated into Buddhism as it became established in Tibet. Interestingly enough, H.H. the Dalai Lama officially certified Mrs. Dolkar as a "reliable exorcist" for "all mental and physical ills and problems." (Shaman's Drum, number 45). In the Tibetan tradition, oracles are usually born into a family of shamans. Mrs. Dolkar was not, and therefore her family did not understand why, at an early age, she suffered illness and psychotic episodes. She became a Buddhist nun at age 13 and was known as the "Crazy Nun" because of her unpredictable behavior. She left the nunnery at the insistence of a mysterious old woman who visited her in her dreams. Eventually she married and went to India, but was still unstable and moving from place to place. It was while she was living in Ladakh that a high lama recognized her shamanic potential. Another Lhamo perceived that Mrs. Dolkar had been chosen by the Goddess Dorje Yudronma because of their connection in a previous life. Mrs. Dolkar remained with this Abhi Lhamo as her guru to heal and to learn how to channel the Goddess's energy.
http://www.bodhimed.com/bodhiblog/150-believe-it-or-not

Larry G. Peters, “The Tibetan Rituals of Dorje Yiidronma: A Fierce Manifestation of Feminine Cosmic Force,” in Shaman's Drum (Number 45, 1997)
https://www.amazon.com/Shamans-Magazine ... B00219CAQA
Dorje Yudrönma
Sometimes considered to be the leader of the tenma goddesses, twelve indigenous female deities commanded by Padmakara to protect the land of Tibet, Dorje Yudrönma (“Indestructible Turquoise Torch Lady”) is an important protector in the Nyingma tradition and is particularly associated with Longchenpa, one of the early, great Nyingma masters. She was the deity that the Vidyadhara Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche invoked when performing prasena. Though she can be depicted in a variety of colors and holding various implements, in the sadhana by Jamgön Mipham Gyatso Rinpoche that the Vidyadhara used when performing the mirror divination, she is brilliant white in color and holds an arrow with silks of the five colors in her right hand and a silver mirror in her left. Often she rides a mount. She is considered to have a special connection with Ekajati and to be an emanation of Vajravarahi.
https://www.nalandatranslation.org/offe ... ee-courts/

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Mantrik
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Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:53 pm

Sorry to reawaken an old thread, but I have a relevant question.
Yudronma has an oracle.........I've seen a video of the oracle at Nechung Monastery.
Is she enlightened?
If so, how can she have an oracle?
Thanks.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Malcolm
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Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:22 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:53 pm
Sorry to reawaken an old thread, but I have a relevant question.
Yudronma has an oracle.........I've seen a video of the oracle at Nechung Monastery.
Is she enlightened?
If so, how can she have an oracle?
Thanks.
Yudronma is a mundane emanation of Vajrayogini.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Mantrik
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Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:22 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:53 pm
Sorry to reawaken an old thread, but I have a relevant question.
Yudronma has an oracle.........I've seen a video of the oracle at Nechung Monastery.
Is she enlightened?
If so, how can she have an oracle?
Thanks.
Yudronma is a mundane emanation of Vajrayogini.
Thanks. That explains the oracle. :)
In other threads it looked like for some schools she was trreated as enlightened, but not for others.

The context was that I was watching a video from Sikkim where the medium was supposedly possessed by 'the Goddess Drolma' as part of Saka Dawa celebrations. I thoguht this to be nonsense as she is enlightened, then thought of the situation with Yudronma and wasn't sure if she was an example of an enlightened being working through an oracle. We know the other one where there is an inconsistency. ;)

Thanks for clearing that up .
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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cloudburst
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Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?

Post by cloudburst » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:22 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:53 pm
Sorry to reawaken an old thread, but I have a relevant question.
Yudronma has an oracle.........I've seen a video of the oracle at Nechung Monastery.
Is she enlightened?
If so, how can she have an oracle?
Thanks.
Yudronma is a mundane emanation of Vajrayogini.

Hi

Could you kindly clarify this idea?

If someone is an emanation of Vajrayogini, would they not naturally be an enlightened being, actually Vajrayogini appearing in another aspect?
Is it that they have a mundane aspect (proportions, signs/indications etc?) But, on the other hand, doesn't mundane/supramundane depend on the mind of the observer?

Thanks.

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