The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra

[TaTa]

Sooo whats the difference?

[mahabuddha]

Do you know what the Four Contemplations are?

[Malcolm]

Sooo whats the difference?

The latter are gradual, the former are not.

[krodha]

In case anyone needs a refresher:

The four yogas of mahāmudrā (skt. catvāri mahāmudrā yoga, Wylie: phyag rgya chen po'i rnal 'byor bzhi):

(i) one-pointedness (skt. ekāgra, tib. rtse gcig)
(ii) simplicity (skt. niṣprapāncha, tib. spros bral) "free from complexity" or "not elaborate"
(iii) one taste (skt. samarasa, tib. ro gcig)
(iv) non-meditation (skt. abhāvanā, tib. sgom med)

The four contemplations [ting nge dzin] of Dzogchen sems sde:

(i) calm state: nepa (gnas pa)
(ii) non-movement: miyowa (mi gyo ba)
(iii) non-dual: nyamnyi (nyam nyid)
(iv) natural perfection: lhundrüp (lhun grub)

[TaTa]

Sooo whats the difference?

The latter are gradual, the former are not.

can i ask you to elaborate? Im reading on the subject but i cant seem to grasp it.

[Malcolm]

Sooo whats the difference?

The latter are gradual, the former are not.

can i ask you to elaborate? Im reading on the subject but i cant seem to grasp it.

Which subject. The four ting nge 'dzins?

[TaTa]

The latter are gradual, the former are not.

can i ask you to elaborate? Im reading on the subject but i cant seem to grasp it.

Which subject. The four ting nge 'dzins?

Why one is gradual and the other not. Is it because one has DI and the other no?

[Malcolm]

can i ask you to elaborate? Im reading on the subject but i cant seem to grasp it.

Which subject. The four ting nge 'dzins?

Why one is gradual and the other not. Is it because one has DI and the other no?

They both depend on a kind of introduction. However, the four samadhis are based on the experience of the rig pa'i rtsal dbang, while the four yogas are introduced in a gradual process of pointing out.

That said, it is vital to both approaches to discover the experience of śamatha in the beginning. Without that experience, there are no four contemplations nor four yogas.

[florin]

Non-gradual means basically that they are non sequential.
For example, understanding the self perfected aspect of manifestation(the 4th contemplation) is not something that arises as a result of implementing 1, 2 and 3 in order, because it has been there all along but it went unrecognized.So in order to recognize how our presence is in its totality we need at least to calm and settle the mind which is the first thing we need to do. If we do this the rest of the "contemplations" can "happen" in a flash and all together so we don't have to go through a sequence to accomplish each one independently and individually.

Personally I like to look at these "contemplations" and understand them as representing the basis from its own side, the truth that we are confronted with when we rest. So they are not stages or steps that need to be accomplished sequentially.

[makewhisper]

Which subject. The four ting nge 'dzins?

Why one is gradual and the other not. Is it because one has DI and the other no?

They both depend on a kind of introduction. However, the four samadhis are based on the experience of the rig pa'i rtsal dbang, while the four yogas are introduced in a gradual process of pointing out.

That said, it is vital to both approaches to discover the experience of śamatha in the beginning. Without that experience, there are no four contemplations nor four yogas.

Is the rig pa'i rtsal dbang the direct introduction? Is Would you say that śamatha is vital to recognition during the direct introduction?

[Marc]

Is the rig pa'i rtsal dbang the direct introduction?

Hmmm... I would be tempted to say No. But Malcom's comment makes me doubt my understanding.
As far I as can tell, Direct Introduction renders the tibetan ngo sprod (pronounced "ngotrö"), where one is introduced to Rigpa in its "nakedness".
Whereas the rig pa'i rtsal dbang (pronounced "rigpé tsel wang"), is the Empowerment (wang) of Rigpa's Expressive Power / Dynamic Display (Tsal).
Before reading Malcolm comments, I would have said that the rig pa'i rtsal dbang is the gateway to the practice of Thögal, while rigpa'i ngo sprod is the gateway to Dzogchen in general, and Trekchö more specifically.
But apparently, this is an oversimplication / generalization...

@Malcom:
Could you please, (if this is not inappropriate on a forum), develop a bit your point even further ?

Would you say that śamatha is vital to recognition during the direct introduction?

Very helpful for most people: Most probably. (Exemple: Patrul Rinpoche's teaching on the Tsik Sum Ne Dek)
Vital / Necessary: No.

Only 3 things are necessary:
An authentic lineage holder (1) willing to share his authentic instructions and methods (2) to an authentically devoted / open disciple(3) (a student really willing to learn and "participate" in ChNN lingo).

[Anonymous X]

Non-gradual means basically that they are non sequential.
For example, understanding the self perfected aspect of manifestation(the 4th contemplation) is not something that arises as a result of implementing 1, 2 and 3 in order, because it has been there all along but it went unrecognized.So in order to recognize how our presence is in its totality we need at least to calm and settle the mind which is the first thing we need to do. If we do this the rest of the "contemplations" can "happen" in a flash and all together so we don't have to go through a sequence to accomplish each one independently and individually.

Personally I like to look at these "contemplations" and understand them as representing the basis from its own side, the truth that we are confronted with when we rest. So they are not stages or steps that need to be accomplished sequentially.

And what has this done for you since began contemplating them?

[Vasana]

Non-gradual means basically that they are non sequential.
For example, understanding the self perfected aspect of manifestation(the 4th contemplation) is not something that arises as a result of implementing 1, 2 and 3 in order, because it has been there all along but it went unrecognized.So in order to recognize how our presence is in its totality we need at least to calm and settle the mind which is the first thing we need to do. If we do this the rest of the "contemplations" can "happen" in a flash and all together so we don't have to go through a sequence to accomplish each one independently and individually.

Personally I like to look at these "contemplations" and understand them as representing the basis from its own side, the truth that we are confronted with when we rest. So they are not stages or steps that need to be accomplished sequentially.

And what has this done for you since began contemplating them?

See Krodha's post above for the context of the word 'contemplation'. Anon-x, I suspect you are using the word 'contemplating' literally here.

The four contemplations [ting nge dzin] of Dzogchen sems sde:

(i) calm state: nepa (gnas pa)
(ii) non-movement: miyowa (mi gyo ba)
(iii) non-dual: nyamnyi (nyam nyid)
(iv) natural perfection: lhundrüp (lhun grub)

[Anonymous X]

Same question. What has this done for you? Can we assume that you do things for a result?

[Vasana]

Same question. What has this done for you? Can we assume that you do things for a result?

Best not to assume anything. If you understood the context of these teachings and how the base, path & fruit of Dzogchen & Mahamudra is presented, you probably wouldn't feel the need to ask those questions in the first place. Dzogchen begins with direct introduction, then you come to confidence about what was introduced through applying various means, then the rest of the path is simply continuing in that state, where thoughts are self-arisen and self-liberated.

[Malcolm]

As far I as can tell, Direct Introduction renders the tibetan ngo sprod (pronounced "ngotrö"), where one is introduced to Rigpa in its "nakedness".

"Direct introduction" is ChNN's translation of rang ngo thag tu sprad, which could otherwise be translated as "directly encountering one's own state." This is the first phrase of the famous three phrases of Garab Dorje.

Whereas the rig pa'i rtsal dbang (pronounced "rigpé tsel wang"), is the Empowerment (wang) of Rigpa's Expressive Power / Dynamic Display (Tsal).

Before reading Malcolm comments, I would have said that the rig pa'i rtsal dbang is the gateway to the practice of Thögal, while rigpa'i ngo sprod is the gateway to Dzogchen in general, and Trekchö more specifically.
But apparently, this is an oversimplication / generalization...

The term rig pa'i rtsal dbang, (empowerment of the potential of vidyā) is used in many contexts — for example, there are the eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs of the so called mind series; the fourth empowerment of the King's Tradition of Avalokiteśvara from the Mani Kabum is called the empowerment of the potential of vidyā, where it is also noted that it forms the root of all other empowerments.

ChNN has stated many times that "direct introduction" is an empowerment of the potential of vidyā. Thus, I use them interchangeably.

Would you say that śamatha is vital to recognition during the direct introduction?

Normally, during the course of a direct introduction, the master will ask people to remain in a calm, undistracted state. I am under the impression from one of Tulku Urgyen's students that he was impressed with the śamatha of the some Vipassana people who became his students and thought it was a great preparation for Dzogchen practice. The serious practice of the mind series teachings in Santi Mahā Sangha requires the development of śamatha. And in the 21 semzins of the intimate instruction series, there are methods for developing śamatha very quickly.

[Anonymous X]

Same question. What has this done for you? Can we assume that you do things for a result?

Best not to assume anything. If you understood the context of these teachings and how the base, path & fruit of Dzogchen & Mahamudra is presented, you probably wouldn't feel the need to ask those questions in the first place. Dzogchen begins with direct introduction, then you come to confidence about what was introduced through applying various means, then the rest of the path is simply continuing in that state, where thoughts are self-arisen and self-liberated.

I am asking a straight forward question. What has this practice done for you? Has discursive thinking stopped? Has the subject/object dichotomy been resolved? Has there been any transformative experience or understanding that is now irreversible and functional? This being in contrast with philosophical or dialectical constructs. Is there a mind or no-mind, or neither a mind or a no-mind? Maybe something else? Some other description that is bulletproof in your own being? I'm not being glib.

[Malcolm]

Same question. What has this done for you? Can we assume that you do things for a result?

Best not to assume anything. If you understood the context of these teachings and how the base, path & fruit of Dzogchen & Mahamudra is presented, you probably wouldn't feel the need to ask those questions in the first place. Dzogchen begins with direct introduction, then you come to confidence about what was introduced through applying various means, then the rest of the path is simply continuing in that state, where thoughts are self-arisen and self-liberated.

I am asking a straight forward question. What has this practice done for you? Has discursive thinking stopped? Has the subject/object dichotomy been resolved? Has there been any transformative experience or understanding that is now irreversible and functional? This being in contrast with philosophical or dialectical constructs. Is there a mind or no-mind, or neither a mind or a no-mind? Maybe something else? Some other description that is bulletproof in your own being? I'm not being glib.

You have completely missed the side of the barn with your question due to your clear unfamiliarity with the subject matter (Atiyoga).

[Anonymous X]

What was I thinking.

[Malcolm]

What was I thinking.

I have that reaction to virtually all of your posts in the Dzogchen forum, "What is this guy thinking?"