Confused about nature of mind introduction

Seeking Wisdom
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 3:06 am

Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Seeking Wisdom » Wed May 17, 2017 3:14 am

Hello every one. I've been browsing this board since I found it recently and haven't been able to find a concern I've been having in any other thread, so thought I'd register and ask.

I've been chasing after the dzogchen experience for some time now and earlier this year I watched a webcast with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche where he introduced rigpa through a guru yoga of Garab Dorje. I keep reading over and over that the introduction is to introduce you to the state of rigpa, and then afterwards you work with integrating what you were introduced to. It just so happens that I did not recognize anything (at least consciously) during the introduction, so I'm unsure how to work with meditating on something I had no recognition of in the first place. I paid full attention during the retreat and followed along closely with the visualizations and recitations. Am I just not a suitable candidate for Dzogchen?

What is the course of action I should take here, if any? If any one has any thoughts on this I'm all ears.

Thanks.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4485
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by heart » Wed May 17, 2017 4:42 am

Seeking Wisdom wrote:Hello every one. I've been browsing this board since I found it recently and haven't been able to find a concern I've been having in any other thread, so thought I'd register and ask.

I've been chasing after the dzogchen experience for some time now and earlier this year I watched a webcast with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche where he introduced rigpa through a guru yoga of Garab Dorje. I keep reading over and over that the introduction is to introduce you to the state of rigpa, and then afterwards you work with integrating what you were introduced to. It just so happens that I did not recognize anything (at least consciously) during the introduction, so I'm unsure how to work with meditating on something I had no recognition of in the first place. I paid full attention during the retreat and followed along closely with the visualizations and recitations. Am I just not a suitable candidate for Dzogchen?

What is the course of action I should take here, if any? If any one has any thoughts on this I'm all ears.

Thanks.
Don't worry, it is perfectly normal. If you feel connected to Rinpoche you can participate in the direct introduction again and again since it actually happens every retreat. You will eventually get it.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Yeti
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:30 pm

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Yeti » Wed May 17, 2017 4:53 am

I sat in front of Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche for 3 months receiving initiations, transmission (including direct introduction) and teachings, and nothing happened to me consciously. It was only later as I practised that I think anything arose out of that experience. :namaste: :namaste: :namaste:
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Anonymous X » Wed May 17, 2017 6:29 am

Seeking Wisdom wrote:Hello every one. I've been browsing this board since I found it recently and haven't been able to find a concern I've been having in any other thread, so thought I'd register and ask.

I've been chasing after the dzogchen experience for some time now and earlier this year I watched a webcast with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche where he introduced rigpa through a guru yoga of Garab Dorje. I keep reading over and over that the introduction is to introduce you to the state of rigpa, and then afterwards you work with integrating what you were introduced to. It just so happens that I did not recognize anything (at least consciously) during the introduction, so I'm unsure how to work with meditating on something I had no recognition of in the first place. I paid full attention during the retreat and followed along closely with the visualizations and recitations. Am I just not a suitable candidate for Dzogchen?

What is the course of action I should take here, if any? If any one has any thoughts on this I'm all ears.

Thanks.
What was your background before watching the webcast? Were you involved with any philosophy or practice prior to this?

fckw
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 am

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by fckw » Wed May 17, 2017 7:06 am

Nearly all practitioners require many repetitions of direct introduction, before they start consciously to understand what this is all about. The problem is that the rigpa is so close to ourselves that we usually tend to miss it for its simplicity. Instead, we are looking for some kind of experience, e.g. things like "radiance" or "spaciousness" or a "shift of mind" or "stillness". All of this might be there, or not, in any case these are only "outer appearances".

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8434
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed May 17, 2017 7:09 am

In addition to the great advice here, check out the Rushens, Semdzins, and Lojong books by Rinpoche. It took me five or so DIs for me before I had any real confidence.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Vasana » Wed May 17, 2017 8:41 am

+1 for Semdzins and rushans. Rinpoche's book on Shiné and Lhagtong in the Dzogchen teachings is also really worth checking out, especially if you already have any experience with calm abiding and vippassana. It helps to read other books on these topics too. Rainbow painting by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche covers a lot of important points very clearly.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Seeking Wisdom
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 3:06 am

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Seeking Wisdom » Thu May 18, 2017 1:11 am

Thanks for the replies.

@Yeti, that must have been quite the experience. I've only seen documentaries and heard various things about Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, but he must have been an awesome person to get to meet. Can I ask, what practices were you doing when you finally recognized?

If I'm understanding this correctly, the introduction that I went through with rinpoche is kind of like permission (in the case that I didn't get it during the introduction) to work with methods to finally get it? So rushen and semdzin would be the way to go, it seems, from what has been suggested here. I have a cursory understanding of what outer rushen would entail and it seems like something I've been doing my whole life, quite frankly. Nevertheless, if I were to follow through these practices on my own, how would I confirm if I were to recognize, in the absence of a teacher? I don't think I could call up rinpoche and ask directly. Is it something that's just unmistakable?

Also, I see a lot written in Dzogchen books about the two stages. Having gotten the introduction from rinpoche, is this something that I could try to undertake? My understanding is that first one proceeds from refuge > bodhisattva vows > tantric practice with all the samaya that that entails. Can someone who has gotten the introduction that I did practice creation/completion without all the samaya involved? How would one go about that?

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Vasana » Thu May 18, 2017 8:12 am

Seeking Wisdom wrote:Thanks for the replies.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the introduction that I went through with rinpoche is kind of like permission (in the case that I didn't get it during the introduction) to work with methods to finally get it?


Yeah that's it.
Seeking Wisdom wrote:So rushen and semdzin would be the way to go, it seems, from what has been suggested here. I have a cursory understanding of what outer rushen would entail and it seems like something I've been doing my whole life, quite frankly. Nevertheless, if I were to follow through these practices on my own, how would I confirm if I were to recognize, in the absence of a teacher? I don't think I could call up rinpoche and ask directly. Is it something that's just unmistakable?


You practice various methods again and again until you are confident in what was recognized. Confidence can come quickly or it can come gradually through repeated exposure. You catch the first scent of it and repeat it enough until it becomes unmistakable. An extensive theoretical view isn't always indispensible but it can help you know if you're aiming for the right target and if you're straying into conceptual imitations.
Seeking Wisdom wrote:Also, I see a lot written in Dzogchen books about the two stages. Having gotten the introduction from rinpoche, is this something that I could try to undertake? My understanding is that first one proceeds from refuge > bodhisattva vows > tantric practice with all the samaya that that entails. Can someone who has gotten the introduction that I did practice creation/completion without all the samaya involved? How would one go about that?
Rinpoche mostly transmits Anu-Yoga which doesn't nessecitate generation stage but completion. You can use these methods if you've received the lungs for them. You can practice the two stages if you've received them elsewhere. It's not possible to practice creation or completion without samaya and I think that recieving any tantric practice entails the bodhisatva vow as implicitly included within it, as with direct introduction. Dzogchen also has it's own root samayas.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

florin
Posts: 1129
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by florin » Thu May 18, 2017 9:21 am

Seeking Wisdom wrote:Thanks for the replies.

@Yeti, that must have been quite the experience. I've only seen documentaries and heard various things about Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, but he must have been an awesome person to get to meet. Can I ask, what practices were you doing when you finally recognized?

If I'm understanding this correctly, the introduction that I went through with rinpoche is kind of like permission (in the case that I didn't get it during the introduction) to work with methods to finally get it? So rushen and semdzin would be the way to go, it seems, from what has been suggested here. I have a cursory understanding of what outer rushen would entail and it seems like something I've been doing my whole life, quite frankly. Nevertheless, if I were to follow through these practices on my own, how would I confirm if I were to recognize, in the absence of a teacher? I don't think I could call up rinpoche and ask directly. Is it something that's just unmistakable?

Also, I see a lot written in Dzogchen books about the two stages. Having gotten the introduction from rinpoche, is this something that I could try to undertake? My understanding is that first one proceeds from refuge > bodhisattva vows > tantric practice with all the samaya that that entails. Can someone who has gotten the introduction that I did practice creation/completion without all the samaya involved? How would one go about that?
I have been asking same exact questions a few years back and i never got any straight answers.The answers were mostly vague or patronizing.

The sad truth is that you cannot confirm the recognition on your own-at home- or discover it on your own.
You need to first have an unmistakable recognition DURING the direct introduction and then when you go home and apply the methods for recognition you will encounter that again and you will recognise it.That is how to do it.
Why then have direct introduction if it doesn't matter if you recognized it or not ?
It doens't make sense.

If you don't have a clear and obvious encounter with the nature during DI then it will be almost impossible to discern or decide, from the myriads of experiences one can have while applying the various methods, what or which is the real nature.

AN example would be to be introduced to a person called John today.
Tomorrow you go into town and among crowds you recognise John.

How can you pick John from the crowds(experiences), how can you recognise his face if you have not been yet introduced to him ?
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

philji
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 2:26 pm

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by philji » Thu May 18, 2017 9:25 am

florin wrote:
Seeking Wisdom wrote:Thanks for the replies.

@Yeti, that must have been quite the experience. I've only seen documentaries and heard various things about Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, but he must have been an awesome person to get to meet. Can I ask, what practices were you doing when you finally recognized?

If I'm understanding this correctly, the introduction that I went through with rinpoche is kind of like permission (in the case that I didn't get it during the introduction) to work with methods to finally get it? So rushen and semdzin would be the way to go, it seems, from what has been suggested here. I have a cursory understanding of what outer rushen would entail and it seems like something I've been doing my whole life, quite frankly. Nevertheless, if I were to follow through these practices on my own, how would I confirm if I were to recognize, in the absence of a teacher? I don't think I could call up rinpoche and ask directly. Is it something that's just unmistakable?

Also, I see a lot written in Dzogchen books about the two stages. Having gotten the introduction from rinpoche, is this something that I could try to undertake? My understanding is that first one proceeds from refuge > bodhisattva vows > tantric practice with all the samaya that that entails. Can someone who has gotten the introduction that I did practice creation/completion without all the samaya involved? How would one go about that?
I have been asking same exact questions a few years back and i never got any straight answers.The answers were mostly vague or patronizing.

The sad truth is that you cannot confirm the recognition on your own-at home- or discover it on your own.
You need to first have an unmistakable recognition DURING the direct introduction and then when you go home and apply the methods for recognition you will encounter that again and you will recognise it.That is how to do it.
Why then have direct introduction if it doesn't matter if you recognized it or not ?
It doens't make sense.

If you don't have a clear and obvious encounter with the nature during DI then it will be almost impossible to discern or decide, from the myriads of experiences one can have while applying the various methods, what or which is the real nature.

AN example would be to be introduced to a person called John today.
Tomorrow you go into town and among crowds you recognise John.

How can you pick John from the crowds(experiences), how can you recognise his face if you have not been yet introduced to him ?
John may have his name written on his t shirt. " hi I am John"

florin
Posts: 1129
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by florin » Thu May 18, 2017 9:29 am

philji wrote: John may have his name written on his t shirt. " hi I am John"
In the context of our conversation what does this means exactly ?
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4485
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by heart » Thu May 18, 2017 10:32 am

florin wrote:
Seeking Wisdom wrote:Thanks for the replies.

@Yeti, that must have been quite the experience. I've only seen documentaries and heard various things about Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, but he must have been an awesome person to get to meet. Can I ask, what practices were you doing when you finally recognized?

If I'm understanding this correctly, the introduction that I went through with rinpoche is kind of like permission (in the case that I didn't get it during the introduction) to work with methods to finally get it? So rushen and semdzin would be the way to go, it seems, from what has been suggested here. I have a cursory understanding of what outer rushen would entail and it seems like something I've been doing my whole life, quite frankly. Nevertheless, if I were to follow through these practices on my own, how would I confirm if I were to recognize, in the absence of a teacher? I don't think I could call up rinpoche and ask directly. Is it something that's just unmistakable?

Also, I see a lot written in Dzogchen books about the two stages. Having gotten the introduction from rinpoche, is this something that I could try to undertake? My understanding is that first one proceeds from refuge > bodhisattva vows > tantric practice with all the samaya that that entails. Can someone who has gotten the introduction that I did practice creation/completion without all the samaya involved? How would one go about that?
I have been asking same exact questions a few years back and i never got any straight answers.The answers were mostly vague or patronizing.

The sad truth is that you cannot confirm the recognition on your own-at home- or discover it on your own.
You need to first have an unmistakable recognition DURING the direct introduction and then when you go home and apply the methods for recognition you will encounter that again and you will recognise it.That is how to do it.
Why then have direct introduction if it doesn't matter if you recognized it or not ?
It doens't make sense.

If you don't have a clear and obvious encounter with the nature during DI then it will be almost impossible to discern or decide, from the myriads of experiences one can have while applying the various methods, what or which is the real nature.

AN example would be to be introduced to a person called John today.
Tomorrow you go into town and among crowds you recognise John.

How can you pick John from the crowds(experiences), how can you recognise his face if you have not been yet introduced to him ?
I agree. I think you need to have a clear recognition during direct introduction in order to recognise it again on your own. However, many might have the recognition during direct introduction but don't recognise it as such. It is a rather complicated matter but it can be resolved by getting direct introduction again and again.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

tingdzin
Posts: 1081
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by tingdzin » Thu May 18, 2017 2:59 pm

I think florin is telling it the way it is. If you get repeated introductions in the context of a large group or on video, as some posters have recommended, and still are not sure you got the point, you just might try going a more traditional route, and making a personal relationship with a qualified teacher, and following his instructions.

We all follow the paths that our karma takes us down, but it would be a shame if, having heard about the profound teaching of Dzogchen, one wastes one's life in pursuit of an flawed conception of it.

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu May 18, 2017 3:18 pm

Seeking Wisdom wrote:I have a cursory understanding of what outer rushen would entail and it seems like something I've been doing my whole life, quite frankly. Nevertheless, if I were to follow through these practices on my own, how would I confirm if I were to recognize, in the absence of a teacher? I don't think I could call up rinpoche and ask directly. Is it something that's just unmistakable?
Firstly, do your homework: get the books in which ChNN discusses direct introduction (Guruyoga, for instance) and listen to as many of ChNN's webcasts as possible -- and try to receive his instructions as they are, without distorting anything. The way you approach them matters: being tense or stressed out will surely make matters worse -- while if you trust ChNN, and trust that what he tells you is exactly what you should do, things will much easier. If the trust is not there, developing it will surely help. Reading around is useful, too: Vasana's recommendations are spot-on. Anything by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche (or his sons) and Yongdzin (Lopon Tenzin Namdak) Rinpoche -- the two Dzogchen teachers ChNN has advised his students to receive teachings from -- is well worth reading and rereading, time and again.

Secondly, use the methods as much as you can, leisurely, without getting worked up, without working to a deadline or exerting yourself. If it still does not help, write to ChNN -- a very short, concise and straight-to-the-point e-mail -- or, better still, ask him in person during a retreat. And trust the answer he gives.

In one of recent threads somebody has spoken of the need to follow ChNN's advice as if your life depended on it. I could not agree more.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

pemachophel
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by pemachophel » Thu May 18, 2017 3:23 pm

A few months ago, one of my Teachers told a story about a well-known Khenpo. (Relatively contemporary, like in the last 20-30 years. Sorry, I forget the Khenpo's name.) This Khenpo had received pointing our instructions many times from many great Dzogchen Gurus. He had also received the oral transmission and commentary for numerous Dzogchen texts which he had studied assiduously. However, after many years he still hadn't "decided on one thing." It could be this or it could be that. Maybe it's like this; maybe it's like that. Finally he was at his wits end and he went to yet another Guru where he broke down and cried, sobbing uncontrollably. Explaining to the Guru his situation, the Guru suggested that they say some Vajrasattvas together. Then they sat in meditation and suddenly certainty dawned in the mind of the Khenpo.

Good luck & best wishes.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

michaelb
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:04 pm

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by michaelb » Thu May 18, 2017 6:05 pm

I was wondering about the difference between the kind of direct introduction or rigpa'i tsal wang, where the lama shouts phat or some such syllable, compared to a more conversational pointing out, where the lama asks questions. Where/what is the mind, etc. Actually, at one Rigdzin Dupa wang the lama shouted a question.
Traditionally, are these two approaches seen as different?

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4943
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by conebeckham » Thu May 18, 2017 6:07 pm

pemachophel wrote:A few months ago, one of my Teachers told a story about a well-known Khenpo. (Relatively contemporary, like in the last 20-30 years. Sorry, I forget the Khenpo's name.) This Khenpo had received pointing our instructions many times from many great Dzogchen Gurus. He had also received the oral transmission and commentary for numerous Dzogchen texts which he had studied assiduously. However, after many years he still hadn't "decided on one thing." It could be this or it could be that. Maybe it's like this; maybe it's like that. Finally he was at his wits end and he went to yet another Guru where he broke down and cried, sobbing uncontrollably. Explaining to the Guru his situation, the Guru suggested that they say some Vajrasattvas together. Then they sat in meditation and suddenly certainty dawned in the mind of the Khenpo.

Good luck & best wishes.
Great story. I think it often happens like this.

This instruction allowing one to "decide on one thing" is the most precious gift of the master, but it is also dependent on the state of the student. If you are all worked up, anxious, distracted, it is doubtful you will "catch it." There are so many methods to facilitate a good receptive state. Ultimately, though, it's about relationship with the Guru. Honestly, the interaction with the guru, along with the ability to relax in devotion, is the key. The plethora of conceptual thoughts and constructs, worries, speculations, are inevitable--but they have to be dropped, in the right circumstances.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4943
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by conebeckham » Thu May 18, 2017 6:10 pm

michaelb wrote:I was wondering about the difference between the kind of direct introduction or rigpa'i tsal wang, where the lama shouts phat or some such syllable, compared to a more conversational pointing out, where the lama asks questions. Where/what is the mind, etc. Actually, at one Rigdzin Dupa wang the lama shouted a question.
Traditionally, are these two approaches seen as different?
Yes, different......in some sense. And there are many other different methods---the Lama may make gestures, or speak a few words. Different approaches, but same goal. The more "gradual" questions are more in line with Mahamudra, or with Sem De Dzogchen, I think. Rigpai TselWang is a more "instant" approach, if that makes sense.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28709
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 18, 2017 6:26 pm

Seeking Wisdom wrote:Hello every one. I've been browsing this board since I found it recently and haven't been able to find a concern I've been having in any other thread, so thought I'd register and ask.

I've been chasing after the dzogchen experience for some time now and earlier this year I watched a webcast with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche where he introduced rigpa through a guru yoga of Garab Dorje. I keep reading over and over that the introduction is to introduce you to the state of rigpa, and then afterwards you work with integrating what you were introduced to. It just so happens that I did not recognize anything (at least consciously) during the introduction, so I'm unsure how to work with meditating on something I had no recognition of in the first place. I paid full attention during the retreat and followed along closely with the visualizations and recitations. Am I just not a suitable candidate for Dzogchen?

What is the course of action I should take here, if any? If any one has any thoughts on this I'm all ears.

Thanks.

You do not understand the principle of the three transmissions, it seems. ChNN describes them very precisely on page-15-17 of the Song of the Vajra book.

In essence, a teacher communicates with words and symbols in order to generate an understanding of the meaning of the Great Perfection in the students mind. If you do not have an understanding of the verbal and symbolic transmissions, there is no way you will enter into direct transmission. The direct transmission means being in the same state of knowledge as the teacher at the same time. This is why ChNN, when he gives retreats, explains the meaning of the direct introduction through words and symbols before he gives it. If you do not have a conceptual understanding of the meaning of Dzogchen going into direct introduction, you may not recognize what is being pointed out during transmission. He says:
Chogyal Namkahai Norbu wrote:The third method, direct transmisison, implies that one already has the knowledge of the oral and symbolic transmissions. Through these two, one has an idea of how to enter the real nature; then by using different experiences together, and by entering into that real nature at the same moment as the teacher, there is the possibility that one also receives direct transmission. So direct transmission implies the the possibility of receiving knowledge, when the student already knows how to work while the teacher transmits that knowledge.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kunzang Tobgyal, Leif, LoveFromColorado, O_156, smcj and 85 guests