Confused about nature of mind introduction

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 21, 2017 3:49 pm

smcj wrote:
However, Ati guruyoga is about the easiest practice in the world.
Serious question: How is Ati guruyoga different than regular guruyoga?

If you really want to know, I recommend you attend a retreat.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by smcj » Sun May 21, 2017 3:53 pm

My impression is that it skips the historical lineage(s) and just goes to the heart of the matter with the guru being the primordial "AH". That's actually kind of elegant, as it precludes making the practice into a personality cult.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 21, 2017 3:56 pm

smcj wrote:My impression is that it skips the historical lineage and just goes to the heart of the matter with the guru being the primordial "AH".

Not my place to discuss the deeper meanings of the practice. The point is that all teachings one has received and their lineages are included within one's own state, represented in the visualization.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by smcj » Sun May 21, 2017 3:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:The point is that all teachings one has received and their lineages are included within one's own state, represented in the visualization.
Elegant.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 21, 2017 4:02 pm

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The point is that all teachings one has received and their lineages are included within one's own state, represented in the visualization.
Elegant.

Yes, and very unelaborate. Of course, this does not mean that one is precluded from doing more elaborate forms of guru yoga is one if so inclined and has time.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by smcj » Sun May 21, 2017 4:57 pm

I'd like to nominate the normal guruyoga as one of the most problematic of TB's teachings/practices for Westerners. Recently I've been able to have some informal discussions about it with a Kagyu lama and it ends up not a problem if fully understood. It just seems to need more explanation than people usually get. It's not about making a personality cult. Aside from whatever makes ChNN's guruyoga specifically appropriate to Dzogchen, it seems to successfully avoid that pitfall with minimal explanation. But I'm sure there's more to ChNN"s approach than what I can see at a distance.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Dechen Norbu » Sun May 21, 2017 10:35 pm

smcj wrote:I'd like to nominate the normal guruyoga as one of the most problematic of TB's teachings/practices for Westerners. Recently I've been able to have some informal discussions about it with a Kagyu lama and it ends up not a problem if fully understood. It just seems to need more explanation than people usually get. It's not about making a personality cult. Aside from whatever makes ChNN's guruyoga specifically appropriate to Dzogchen, it seems to successfully avoid that pitfall with minimal explanation. But I'm sure there's more to ChNN"s approach than what I can see at a distance.
Perhaps the problem arises because people focus in the temporary features of the teacher instead of his true nature. Going beyond appearances and connecting with the true nature of the guru is the first step to recognize the same nature in ourselves. If poorly understood, guru yoga easily becomes a sort of unhealthy dependence. Properly understood, it isn't even a human thing any longer. It's the alfa and omega of the path.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by pael » Mon May 22, 2017 8:14 am

Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Dzogchen is only for people who are truly interested in it. Others should find paths more suited to their wishes, As Pagor Vairocana said to Paṇḍita Prajn̄āsiddhi, when asked with which vehicle can the result be attained, he replied:
  • The individual entrances into the innermost view of ultimate dharmatā
    are differentiated by grades of capacity.
    The result will also be obtained by realizing
    any vehicle of the sublime Dharma taught by the Buddha.
How about after DI or initiation finding it insuitable for their wishes or capabilities? What to do then?
They practice what they are able to. As ChNN says, "Do your best." However, Ati guruyoga is about the easiest practice in the world.
What, if they have received many different levels of initiations (anuyoga)? I heard after initiation one should to do at least Vajrasattva mantras for preventing samaya-breakages growing.
What, if they have received initiation with promise to recite mantras/prayers as much as possible?
Will Ati guruyoga compensate all those?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 22, 2017 1:31 pm

pael wrote: Will Ati guruyoga compensate all those?
According to the boss, 100%.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by pael » Mon May 22, 2017 4:08 pm

Malcolm wrote: However, Ati guruyoga is about the easiest practice in the world.
Do you mean easier than Amitabha chanting of Pure Land Buddhism?
I understood birth in Sukhavati is guaranteed by saying his name ten times.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 22, 2017 4:15 pm

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote: However, Ati guruyoga is about the easiest practice in the world.
Do you mean easier than Amitabha chanting of Pure Land Buddhism?
I understood birth in Sukhavati is guaranteed by saying his name ten times.
Yes, it is a much more direct path than pure land practice.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Dechen Norbu » Mon May 22, 2017 5:30 pm

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote: However, Ati guruyoga is about the easiest practice in the world.
Do you mean easier than Amitabha chanting of Pure Land Buddhism?
I understood birth in Sukhavati is guaranteed by saying his name ten times.
You mean, you say the name ten times and it's guaranteed rebirth in a Pure Land? Without wanting to sound disrespectful, I have a really hard time buying that...

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Virgo
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Virgo » Mon May 22, 2017 6:00 pm

pael wrote: Will Ati guruyoga compensate all those?
Of course.

Kevin

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Losal Samten
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Losal Samten » Mon May 22, 2017 6:19 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:You mean, you say the name ten times and it's guaranteed rebirth in a Pure Land? Without wanting to sound disrespectful, I have a really hard time buying that...
Longer Sukhavativyuha Sutra, Gomez trans., p. 71

19th Vow of Dharmakara's 47 Vows:
  • "Blessed One, may I not awaken to unsurpassable, perfect, full awakening if, after I attain awakening, living beings in unlimited, countless, numbers of buddha-fields will hear my name, will set their minds on being reborn in my buddha-field and dedicate their roots of merit to rebirth in it, and yet not be reborn in my buddha-field. And this will be true even if they have made the resolution only ten times --except in the case of those who have committed the five offences entailing immediate retribution and of those are hindered by their own opposition to the Good Dharma".
Since Dharmakara became enlightened, and is now known as Buddha Amitabha, the above now in effect.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Dechen Norbu » Mon May 22, 2017 6:36 pm

Still don't buy it. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true. I just can't see how that would work, you see?
Forget karma. We make ten recitations with the aspiration to be reborn in a pure land and we're off the hook? I mean, ten recitations are something so easy to perform that I wonder why Buddha gave a single teaching other than that. The conditions to attain enlightenment in a Pure Land are so more favourable that such method would render most practices irrelevant. Sounds too good to be true...

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Losal Samten
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Losal Samten » Mon May 22, 2017 6:44 pm

Only easy if you have faith in it. :P

In a relevant case, Dza Paltrul used to recite Karma Chagme's Dechen Monlam every evening whilst doing prostrations to the setting sun in the West.

https://soundcloud.com/user-391597126/a ... -sukhavati
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Minobu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Minobu » Mon May 22, 2017 7:30 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Still don't buy it. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true. I just can't see how that would work, you see?
Forget karma. We make ten recitations with the aspiration to be reborn in a pure land and we're off the hook? I mean, ten recitations are something so easy to perform that I wonder why Buddha gave a single teaching other than that. The conditions to attain enlightenment in a Pure Land are so more favourable that such method would render most practices irrelevant. Sounds too good to be true...
first up...i've so been inspired from this section of the forum.
Also I read up on Dzogchen but have not taken the initiation.
For me i always thought one needed to be special and have an incredible relationship with a Nyingma Rinpoche in order to achive the proper effect.
this was a sort of wall for me and again the whole merit thing comes to play..just my 2 cents...

ok onto your post i am in love with...(TMI ??? sawrry)

your post rings with an awareness of all things Buddhist not just Dzogchen.
We make ten recitations with the aspiration to be reborn in a pure land and we're off the hook?
I'm sort of muzzled here talking about this and how i feel about it..
I wonder why Buddha gave a single teaching other than that
I so wanted to post these exact words .
The conditions to attain enlightenment in a Pure Land are so more favourable that such method would render most practices irrelevant
This is the part that drives me here....more of a question than me saying something is so.

As a human we have the perfect chakra body for enlightenment.
the human form is the form of choice for those wishing to embark on the path.

The pure land is more of like a a school and hospital at the same time... forms of enlightenment may be achieved in the Pure Lands but Buddhahood is achieved in the human form..

my take on it...

it's what i gleem from all the teachings i have taken.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Dechen Norbu » Mon May 22, 2017 7:40 pm

Yes. He also did A LOT of other practices. That's my point. I'm sure he was not lacking faith. And stil...

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 22, 2017 7:42 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Still don't buy it. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true. I just can't see how that would work, you see?
Forget karma. We make ten recitations with the aspiration to be reborn in a pure land and we're off the hook? I mean, ten recitations are something so easy to perform that I wonder why Buddha gave a single teaching other than that. The conditions to attain enlightenment in a Pure Land are so more favourable that such method would render most practices irrelevant. Sounds too good to be true...
The caveat is that since a single day there is many thousands of human years long...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon May 22, 2017 7:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Still don't buy it. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true. I just can't see how that would work, you see?
Forget karma. We make ten recitations with the aspiration to be reborn in a pure land and we're off the hook? I mean, ten recitations are something so easy to perform that I wonder why Buddha gave a single teaching other than that. The conditions to attain enlightenment in a Pure Land are so more favourable that such method would render most practices irrelevant. Sounds too good to be true...
The caveat is that since a single day there is many thousands of human years long...
I'm sure time passes quickly in Sukhavati...
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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