Confused about nature of mind introduction

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Dechen Norbu » Mon May 22, 2017 7:50 pm

I wouldn't mind. Thousands of years in a Pure Land with enlightenment at the end is not a bad scenario.

I just can't see how it works. You make ten recitations, discover shit about your true nature, let alone stabilizing anything, purify eons of karma and gain rebirth in a Pure Land? No way in hell I'm ready to believe that.

Sounds more like a QVC add than Dharma. But people can believe whatever they want. If someone can explain me how that would work, maybe I can give the benefit of doubt. At this point, IMO, that's no credible.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Dechen Norbu » Mon May 22, 2017 7:57 pm

Minobu wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Still don't buy it. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true. I just can't see how that would work, you see?
Forget karma. We make ten recitations with the aspiration to be reborn in a pure land and we're off the hook? I mean, ten recitations are something so easy to perform that I wonder why Buddha gave a single teaching other than that. The conditions to attain enlightenment in a Pure Land are so more favourable that such method would render most practices irrelevant. Sounds too good to be true...
first up...i've so been inspired from this section of the forum.
Also I read up on Dzogchen but have not taken the initiation.
For me i always thought one needed to be special and have an incredible relationship with a Nyingma Rinpoche in order to achive the proper effect.
this was a sort of wall for me and again the whole merit thing comes to play..just my 2 cents...

ok onto your post i am in love with...(TMI ??? sawrry)

your post rings with an awareness of all things Buddhist not just Dzogchen.
We make ten recitations with the aspiration to be reborn in a pure land and we're off the hook?
I'm sort of muzzled here talking about this and how i feel about it..
I wonder why Buddha gave a single teaching other than that
I so wanted to post these exact words .
The conditions to attain enlightenment in a Pure Land are so more favourable that such method would render most practices irrelevant
This is the part that drives me here....more of a question than me saying something is so.

As a human we have the perfect chakra body for enlightenment.
the human form is the form of choice for those wishing to embark on the path.

The pure land is more of like a a school and hospital at the same time... forms of enlightenment may be achieved in the Pure Lands but Buddhahood is achieved in the human form..

my take on it...

it's what i gleem from all the teachings i have taken.
Pure Land student? Shit, I'm in trouble! Sorry if I ofended you in any way. Never expected one of you to drop by!

My point is that I really don't see how it would work.
To my knowledge Pure Land schools are much more than 10 recitations, so it's just what was said about those that bothered me.

Best wishes!
Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Mon May 22, 2017 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 22, 2017 8:01 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Still don't buy it. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true. I just can't see how that would work, you see?
Forget karma. We make ten recitations with the aspiration to be reborn in a pure land and we're off the hook? I mean, ten recitations are something so easy to perform that I wonder why Buddha gave a single teaching other than that. The conditions to attain enlightenment in a Pure Land are so more favourable that such method would render most practices irrelevant. Sounds too good to be true...
The caveat is that since a single day there is many thousands of human years long...
I'm sure time passes quickly in Sukhavati...
Consider that most people born there have to wait five hundred years in that land before they can even hear to see Amitbha, 500 Sukhavati years that is...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Dechen Norbu » Mon May 22, 2017 8:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The caveat is that since a single day there is many thousands of human years long...
I'm sure time passes quickly in Sukhavati...
Consider that most people born there have to wait five hundred years in that land before they can even hear to see Amitbha, 500 Sukhavati years that is...
Even so... beats risking lower realms anytime!

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon May 22, 2017 8:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The caveat is that since a single day there is many thousands of human years long...
I'm sure time passes quickly in Sukhavati...
Consider that most people born there have to wait five hundred years in that land before they can even hear to see Amitbha, 500 Sukhavati years that is...
Well, like I always say, I'm going for Abhirati myself but I'm sure there are worse things to do than wait five hundred years in Sukhavati...
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 22, 2017 8:11 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
I'm sure time passes quickly in Sukhavati...
Consider that most people born there have to wait five hundred years in that land before they can even hear to see Amitbha, 500 Sukhavati years that is...
Well, like I always say, I'm going for Abhirati myself but I'm sure there are worse things to do than wait five hundred years in Sukhavati...
I don't know, it reminds me of the scene in Spinal Tap where Harry Shearer is caught in his pod on stage.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Dechen Norbu » Mon May 22, 2017 8:38 pm

Err... I was commenting Kevin's post... where did it went??
----------
I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying I don't believe 10 recitations can grant you rebirth in a Pure Land.

Perfect faith... how can someone have perfect faith in that? It's believing just because! Salvation through belief... no thanks. Too "Abrahamic" for my taste... and equaly sterile.

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Minobu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Minobu » Mon May 22, 2017 8:42 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote: Pure Land student? Shit, I'm in trouble! Sorry if I ofended you in any way. Never expected one of you to drop by!

My point is that I really don't see how it would work.
To my knowledge Pure Land schools are much more than 10 recitations, so it's just what was said about those that bothered me.

Best wishes!
I am not a pure land student.
I practice Nichiren Shonin's teachings , Lotus Buddhism in a form outside of the regulars for i also have a few other schools of thought in me basket I'm quite sure Nichiren Shonin also knew of...lately i posted about Rigpa in the Nichiren section which might seem odd coming from Nichiren Shonin.

That being said...
your post is exactly of the same thought as I. that is what i so badly it seems tried to convey.

sorry if i did not articulate it , i'm on a short leash here and cannot offend in the slightest.
which actually isn't a bad thing..It serves me well and i thank the forum gods for it.
Pure Land schools are much more than 10 recitations,
I think one or three chants of Nam Amida Butsu on your death bed will get you there, is one thing one of the pure land schools teach and believe in quite sternly.


I feel i am being a real outsider here and won't comment at all on this OP. It's really not my place here to do so.

but like i said i learn much from this section, after all it is Buddhism, and your post fits in to what i have been trying to say is all.

thank you
and thank the Dzogchen crowd for their indulgence.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by conebeckham » Mon May 22, 2017 8:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Consider that most people born there have to wait five hundred years in that land before they can even hear to see Amitbha, 500 Sukhavati years that is...
Well, like I always say, I'm going for Abhirati myself but I'm sure there are worse things to do than wait five hundred years in Sukhavati...
I don't know, it reminds me of the scene in Spinal Tap where Harry Shearer is caught in his pod on stage.
LOL, I had the same thought!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon May 22, 2017 9:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Consider that most people born there have to wait five hundred years in that land before they can even hear to see Amitbha, 500 Sukhavati years that is...
Well, like I always say, I'm going for Abhirati myself but I'm sure there are worse things to do than wait five hundred years in Sukhavati...
I don't know, it reminds me of the scene in Spinal Tap where Harry Shearer is caught in his pod on stage.
Hmm, maybe you have a point:

phpBB [video]
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Virgo » Mon May 22, 2017 9:20 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Err... I was commenting Kevin's post... where did it went??
----------
I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying I don't believe 10 recitations can grant you rebirth in a Pure Land.

Perfect faith... how can someone have perfect faith in that? It's believing just because! Salvation through belief... no thanks. Too "Abrahamic" for my taste... and equaly sterile.
Sometimes I just erase them.

Anyway, the main point if I remember is that the body their is inferior. Ours is better.

There is danger everywhere because we are conditioned by mind and therefore create sufferings. The human realm is good enough to be in and to practice. We should not throw that away. Haha, I think we can get the job done now. We are conditioned by mind... no need to arise from some lotus in some future lives to practice. And the spinal tap thing rings true!

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon May 22, 2017 9:22 pm

No one knows who they were ... or what they were doing ... but their legacy remains ...
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Virgo » Mon May 22, 2017 10:31 pm

Seeking Wisdom wrote:What is the course of action I should take here, if any? If any one has any thoughts on this I'm all ears.

Thanks.
Have you been singing the SOV?

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by gzodzilpa » Mon May 22, 2017 10:40 pm

19th Vow of Dharmakara's 47 Vows:
  • "Blessed One, may I not awaken to unsurpassable, perfect, full awakening if, after I attain awakening, living beings in unlimited, countless, numbers of buddha-fields will hear my name, will set their minds on being reborn in my buddha-field and dedicate their roots of merit to rebirth in it, and yet not be reborn in my buddha-field. And this will be true even if they have made the resolution only ten times --except in the case of those who have committed the five offences entailing immediate retribution and of those are hindered by their own opposition to the Good Dharma".
It says living beings in buddha-fields, and I assume that to mean including 'impure' buddha-fields?

However when it mentions only making the resolution ten times, it seems to be a bit more than just making a noise ten times.

It says setting their minds on being reborn in the buddha-field and dedicating their roots of merit to rebirth in it. Another translation says instead 'awakening their highest faith and aspiration of re-birth'.

Seems rather involved.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Minobu » Mon May 22, 2017 11:08 pm

gzodzilpa wrote:
19th Vow of Dharmakara's 47 Vows:
  • "Blessed One, may I not awaken to unsurpassable, perfect, full awakening if, after I attain awakening, living beings in unlimited, countless, numbers of buddha-fields will hear my name, will set their minds on being reborn in my buddha-field and dedicate their roots of merit to rebirth in it, and yet not be reborn in my buddha-field. And this will be true even if they have made the resolution only ten times --except in the case of those who have committed the five offences entailing immediate retribution and of those are hindered by their own opposition to the Good Dharma".
It says living beings in buddha-fields, and I assume that to mean including 'impure' buddha-fields?

However when it mentions only making the resolution ten times, it seems to be a bit more than just making a noise ten times.

It says setting their minds on being reborn in the buddha-field and dedicating their roots of merit to rebirth in it. Another translation says instead 'awakening their highest faith and aspiration of re-birth'.

Seems rather involved.
or simply a wish for beings to attain enlightenment and endure in Samsara for others and not to wish to be enlightened and sit in the awesomeness of some pure land.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon May 22, 2017 11:18 pm

OK, this is really going off track, though the Spinal Tap stuff got me chuckling. It'd be best people confined the talk to responses to the OP and similar, lots of other places for talking about Pureland doctrine etc.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by khemmis » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:48 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 8:01 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The caveat is that since a single day there is many thousands of human years long...
I'm sure time passes quickly in Sukhavati...
Consider that most people born there have to wait five hundred years in that land before they can even hear to see Amitbha, 500 Sukhavati years that is...
What is the source of this information? I mean that five hundred Sukhavati years. Malcolm, anyone...? :) Thanks.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Jehanne » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:34 am

Seeking Wisdom wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 3:14 am
What is the course of action I should take here, if any? If any one has any thoughts on this I'm all ears.
Hi there seeker!
My advice would be to keep practising. Get some decent amount of meditation hours (do it daily!) under your belt before spending any more money on these events. Later you can go, but first familiarize yourself with your mind. What practise are you currently doing or were given to do?

Best,
Jehanne

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:25 pm

Jehanne wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:34 am
Seeking Wisdom wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 3:14 am
What is the course of action I should take here, if any? If any one has any thoughts on this I'm all ears.
Hi there seeker!
My advice would be to keep practising. Get some decent amount of meditation hours (do it daily!) under your belt before spending any more money on these events. Later you can go, but first familiarize yourself with your mind. What practise are you currently doing or were given to do?

Best,
Jehanne
Jehanne, the event Seeking Wisdom was talking about is in fact free, and it involves a master with true knowledge of the natural state giving clear, thorough instructions on how to go about getting to know something about one’s own mind and gaining knowledge of its true nature for oneself. Attending such teachings, and the attendant transmission, is the best possible way to go about gaining knowledge first hand for oneself.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Jehanne » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:09 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:25 pm

Jehanne, the event Seeking Wisdom was talking about is in fact free, and it involves a master with true knowledge of the natural state giving clear, thorough instructions on how to go about getting to know something about one’s own mind and gaining knowledge of its true nature for oneself. Attending such teachings, and the attendant transmission, is the best possible way to go about gaining knowledge first hand for oneself.
Ok, sorry I mixed up the issue about payment. Definately worth going there then, but still also important to actually do the practise at home, too :)

My favourite quote of the month from Alan Wallace: "(There are) two approaches to identifying the mind. We can receive pointing out instructions from a qualified master, or we can just do the practice."

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