Confused about nature of mind introduction

Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 18, 2017 6:28 pm

conebeckham wrote:
michaelb wrote:I was wondering about the difference between the kind of direct introduction or rigpa'i tsal wang, where the lama shouts phat or some such syllable, compared to a more conversational pointing out, where the lama asks questions. Where/what is the mind, etc. Actually, at one Rigdzin Dupa wang the lama shouted a question.
Traditionally, are these two approaches seen as different?
Yes, different......in some sense. And there are many other different methods---the Lama may make gestures, or speak a few words. Different approaches, but same goal. The more "gradual" questions are more in line with Mahamudra, or with Sem De Dzogchen, I think. Rigpai TselWang is a more "instant" approach, if that makes sense.

There are all kinds of "rig pa'i rtsal dbangs." For example, the fourth empowerment of the King's Tradition Avalokiteśvara is called "the empowerment of the potential of vidyā," there are eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs connected with Sems sde, and so on.

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conebeckham
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by conebeckham » Thu May 18, 2017 6:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
michaelb wrote:I was wondering about the difference between the kind of direct introduction or rigpa'i tsal wang, where the lama shouts phat or some such syllable, compared to a more conversational pointing out, where the lama asks questions. Where/what is the mind, etc. Actually, at one Rigdzin Dupa wang the lama shouted a question.
Traditionally, are these two approaches seen as different?
Yes, different......in some sense. And there are many other different methods---the Lama may make gestures, or speak a few words. Different approaches, but same goal. The more "gradual" questions are more in line with Mahamudra, or with Sem De Dzogchen, I think. Rigpai TselWang is a more "instant" approach, if that makes sense.

There are all kinds of "rig pa'i rtsal dbangs." For example, the fourth empowerment of the King's Tradition Avalokiteśvara is called "the empowerment of the potential of vidyā," there are eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs connected with Sems sde, and so on.
They are all, more or less, "instant," though, yes? As opposed to, questioning/investigation sorts of approaches?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 18, 2017 6:36 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Yes, different......in some sense. And there are many other different methods---the Lama may make gestures, or speak a few words. Different approaches, but same goal. The more "gradual" questions are more in line with Mahamudra, or with Sem De Dzogchen, I think. Rigpai TselWang is a more "instant" approach, if that makes sense.

There are all kinds of "rig pa'i rtsal dbangs." For example, the fourth empowerment of the King's Tradition Avalokiteśvara is called "the empowerment of the potential of vidyā," there are eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs connected with Sems sde, and so on.
They are all, more or less, "instant," though, yes? As opposed to, questioning/investigation sorts of approaches?
Not really, the eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs takes a fairly long time, with a lot of explanations, etc. However, they work with experiences as well, not so much question and answer, as in the sems khrid approach.

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conebeckham
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by conebeckham » Thu May 18, 2017 7:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

There are all kinds of "rig pa'i rtsal dbangs." For example, the fourth empowerment of the King's Tradition Avalokiteśvara is called "the empowerment of the potential of vidyā," there are eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs connected with Sems sde, and so on.
They are all, more or less, "instant," though, yes? As opposed to, questioning/investigation sorts of approaches?
Not really, the eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs takes a fairly long time, with a lot of explanations, etc. However, they work with experiences as well, not so much question and answer, as in the sems khrid approach.
Thanks for the precision and clarification!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu May 18, 2017 8:58 pm

tingdzin wrote:I think florin is telling it the way it is. If you get repeated introductions in the context of a large group or on video, as some posters have recommended, and still are not sure you got the point, you just might try going a more traditional route, and making a personal relationship with a qualified teacher, and following his instructions.

We all follow the paths that our karma takes us down, but it would be a shame if, having heard about the profound teaching of Dzogchen, one wastes one's life in pursuit of an flawed conception of it.
:good:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Seeking Wisdom
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Seeking Wisdom » Thu May 18, 2017 10:02 pm

Thanks every one for the replies. I can see the logic in the argument that one needs to have a decisive experience during transmission in order to work with it later. What can one do to maximally prepare for this the next time it comes around? Merit-making activities, purification? Could it be that ChNNR just isn't my tsawei lama?

I'm definitely understanding where the khenpo in the anecdote was coming from with his frustration and bewilderment.

Going into the introduction I had attended a conference call. A lady went over the melodies and visualizations, but there were no actual explanations of what to expect, etc. This was the last Garab Dorje transmission. I don't know if anyone else in the thread attended/watched this one, but it was pretty no-nonsense. Went through the motions, and that was that. There were no explanations given. But this was the end of a longer Mandarava retreat that I did not tune in for. Perhaps I should have?

@Malcolm, Song of the Vajra is restricted. So not sure it's fair to expect a newbie to have read it going into things. I'll add it to my list though. And here I thought Dzogchen was the lazy man's path.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 19, 2017 12:02 am

Seeking Wisdom wrote:
@Malcolm, Song of the Vajra is restricted. So not sure it's fair to expect a newbie to have read it going into things. I'll add it to my list though. And here I thought Dzogchen was the lazy man's path.

There is a very great misunderstanding that has arisen around the so called "transmission days." Originally they were anniversaries where the DC would gather every where in the world at the same time to do a practice related to that days anniversary.

Then, sometime in the late 90's, ChNN came up with the idea of doing remote transmissions guided by video tape. This was soon replaced by webcast transmissions.

But if you have not at least listened to ChNN intro to Dzogchen talks and so on, it is unlikely you will be properly prepared to receive transmission. So many people attend these webcast transmissions, but not understanding the real principle, they remain confused through no fault of their own.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Seeking Wisdom » Fri May 19, 2017 3:33 am

Uh oh. Does this mean that I have not received rigpa tsal wang?

I've been reading some heavy stuff under the impression that I had. Might this be what's creating obstacles? What would you suggest as a course of action Malcolm?

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 19, 2017 3:45 am

Song of the Vajra only requires that you've had direct introduction, Same for Rushens, Semdzins, Lojong. It doesn't have a separate lung or anything that I know if....I had this exact same issue and coming from Vajrayana I expected every little thing would have it's own empowerment. Same for Rushens, Semdzins, Lojong. If you really wanna jump in get Precious Vase, at the very least get the Guru Yoga book if you don't have it...of all the books that is the one. You can practice a ton of stuff simply having had DI with Rinpoche.

My two cents is that It sounds like you would benefit from simply reading and listening to ChNN more, and I don't think it's the best thing necessarily to frame DI as a 'permission', maybe that's part of the issue. DI is DI, literally introduction to the nature of mind. I think that if you approach it waiting for something to happen, or viewing as just a practice permission, it might not be the best thing. IMHE being able to simply relax is a big help...
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Vasana » Fri May 19, 2017 9:09 am

I'd also like to recommend Rinpoches book on Shine and Lhagtong again as it offers a very accessible and simple way of practising until you're able to apply the semdzins ,rushens etc, ideally in a retreat situation. I write that on the assumption that most people have at least some foundation with calm-abiding and vipassana. The book also explains some the fundamentals of distinguishing the characteristics of stillness and movement and quite importantly, the nature of recognition in relation to rising thoughts and perceptions (self-liberation).

Everyone has different experiences with D.I and the path. While others have said you need a concrete experience during D.I it's self or else you need to repeat it again and again, there is a risk that you might assume the experience arrives with bells and whistles and has an unmistakable name badge. It can be more subtle than that and more importantly, the moment of introduction may be genuine but so so brief that it's not possible to have 100% certainty about it right away. [hence the many methods you can apply to re-introduce with the natural state yourself, including tuning in to more webcast D.I's and teachings].
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 19, 2017 1:31 pm

Seeking Wisdom wrote:Uh oh. Does this mean that I have not received rigpa tsal wang?

I've been reading some heavy stuff under the impression that I had. Might this be what's creating obstacles? What would you suggest as a course of action Malcolm?

You received it. The transmission anniversaries are no substitute for attending a webcast retreat, that is all I am saying. But they will give you a "kick in the pants."

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Sennin » Fri May 19, 2017 2:44 pm

Hey Seeker :hi:
In my opinion it's more effective from me when I hear as much as I can from Rinpoche :twothumbsup: . More so than reading books :reading: :zzz: , that's my viewpoint. Haha :pig:
So with that in mind here is a link to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu teaching on the 21 semdzin.
http://meridian-trust.org/video/sem-dzi ... -the-mind/
You can request the password from the uploader but if they delay in sending it you can pm me and I'll send it.
All the best.
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Pero » Fri May 19, 2017 3:58 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Song of the Vajra only requires that you've had direct introduction, Same for Rushens, Semdzins, Lojong. It doesn't have a separate lung or anything that I know if.....
Song of the Vajra is a mantra and requires lung. But Rinpoche gives it every retreat.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Dechen Norbu » Fri May 19, 2017 9:51 pm

florin wrote:
I have been asking same exact questions a few years back and i never got any straight answers.The answers were mostly vague or patronizing.
You've been asking the wrong people then.
The sad truth is that you cannot confirm the recognition on your own-at home- or discover it on your own.
You need to first have an unmistakable recognition DURING the direct introduction and then when you go home and apply the methods for recognition you will encounter that again and you will recognise it.That is how to do it.
Not true.
You may not recognize it when DI is given and discover later when practicing for that effect. I'll even go further and claim that it is in solitary practice after receiving DI, by yourself, that you have better chances of recognition.
Why then have direct introduction if it doesn't matter if you recognized it or not ?
It doens't make sense.
Because without DI you will never recognize it, not mattering the practices you do.
If you don't have a clear and obvious encounter with the nature during DI then it will be almost impossible to discern or decide, from the myriads of experiences one can have while applying the various methods, what or which is the real nature.
Not true. If you practice properly, you'll find out beyond doubt.
AN example would be to be introduced to a person called John today.
Tomorrow you go into town and among crowds you recognise John.

How can you pick John from the crowds(experiences), how can you recognise his face if you have not been yet introduced to him ?
You are abusing a metaphor that has no relation with the actual recognition. DI opens the possibility of recognition at its minimum. Some recognize it in the spot. Others, quite later. It has to happen though and if it doesn't, you are practicing incorrectly. Stabilizing is the challenge, not recognition per se. Obviously this assumes there is diligent practice and some education about the subject.

Best wishes.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Dechen Norbu » Fri May 19, 2017 10:13 pm

tingdzin wrote:I think florin is telling it the way it is. If you get repeated introductions in the context of a large group or on video, as some posters have recommended, and still are not sure you got the point, you just might try going a more traditional route, and making a personal relationship with a qualified teacher, and following his instructions.
With the caveat of avoiding teachers whose actual Dzogchen teachings and practice never really go beyond publicity or are only dispensed after years and years of practicing something else, but Dzogchen.
We all follow the paths that our karma takes us down, but it would be a shame if, having heard about the profound teaching of Dzogchen, one wastes one's life in pursuit of an flawed conception of it.
Dzogchen is mostly a matter of experience, not conceptions. Without recognition, there's no Dzogchen practice. If someone claims to be practicing Dzogchen without being able to rest in the natural state, such person is either a fool or a liar.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 19, 2017 10:54 pm

Pero wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Song of the Vajra only requires that you've had direct introduction, Same for Rushens, Semdzins, Lojong. It doesn't have a separate lung or anything that I know if.....
Song of the Vajra is a mantra and requires lung. But Rinpoche gives it every retreat.

Really? I don't recall that in any of the lists of lungs given in the ones I've done, but i'll take your word for it.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Fri May 19, 2017 11:02 pm

SoV is usually given during the lung for the Short Thun.

The lung is also included during the Anniversary transmissions.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 19, 2017 11:03 pm

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:SoV is usually given during the lung for the Short Thun.

Ah that explain it, thanks.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

Malcolm
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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 19, 2017 11:21 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Pero wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Song of the Vajra only requires that you've had direct introduction, Same for Rushens, Semdzins, Lojong. It doesn't have a separate lung or anything that I know if.....
Song of the Vajra is a mantra and requires lung. But Rinpoche gives it every retreat.

Really? I don't recall that in any of the lists of lungs given in the ones I've done, but i'll take your word for it.
Dude, it is in the short thun, etc.. And he always gives the lung for it when he explains Ati Guru Yoga.

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Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat May 20, 2017 12:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Pero wrote: Song of the Vajra is a mantra and requires lung. But Rinpoche gives it every retreat.

Really? I don't recall that in any of the lists of lungs given in the ones I've done, but i'll take your word for it.
Dude, it is in the short thun, etc.. And he always gives the lung for it when he explains Ati Guru Yoga.

Dude, my confusion was already explained and resolved above. I just didn't remember getting a standalone lung for it, and wondered why.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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