Can I reject direct introduction?

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Boomerang
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Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by Boomerang » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:46 pm

I'm going to an event with a Dzogchen teacher tomorrow. I know the teaching will be related to The Flight of the Garuda, but beyond that I don't know anything. More to the point, I don't know if they're going to give direct introduction during the event. If they suddenly give direct introduction halfway through the event, can I choose not to receive it and thus not receive samaya commitments? This is the first time I've had the opportunity to see a teacher like this, so I'm very excited, but I don't want samaya.
"All the suffering of the lower realms, whatever difficulty and unhappiness we may experience as human beings, as well as every other possible suffering of the three realms of existence, have their origin in cherishing ourselves more than others."

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conebeckham
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by conebeckham » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:55 pm

What do you think is the "samaya" that arises from receiving direct introduction?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Boomerang
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by Boomerang » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:58 pm

conebeckham wrote:What do you think is the "samaya" that arises from receiving direct introduction?
The 27 dzogchen samayas and the stuff in Avagosha's 50 stanzas of guru devotion.
"All the suffering of the lower realms, whatever difficulty and unhappiness we may experience as human beings, as well as every other possible suffering of the three realms of existence, have their origin in cherishing ourselves more than others."

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:03 pm

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. :smile:

I assume the teacher in question is Lama Lena. If you really have a concern, just ask her, I'm sure she will give you a straight answer.
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
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conebeckham
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by conebeckham » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:11 pm

Boomerang wrote:
conebeckham wrote:What do you think is the "samaya" that arises from receiving direct introduction?
The 27 dzogchen samayas and the stuff in Avagosha's 50 stanzas of guru devotion.
I think there is no cause for alarm. You do not need to "believe" or "Adhere" to that which you do not subscribe to.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Anonymous X
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by Anonymous X » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:12 am

conebeckham wrote:
Boomerang wrote:
conebeckham wrote:What do you think is the "samaya" that arises from receiving direct introduction?
The 27 dzogchen samayas and the stuff in Avagosha's 50 stanzas of guru devotion.
I think there is no cause for alarm. You do not need to "believe" or "Adhere" to that which you do not subscribe to.....
I'm not sure I understand your reply. Maybe you can clarify a bit. If someone receives DI, aren't the samayas part of the practice of Dzogchen?

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:31 am

Boomerang wrote:I'm going to an event with a Dzogchen teacher tomorrow. I know the teaching will be related to The Flight of the Garuda, but beyond that I don't know anything. More to the point, I don't know if they're going to give direct introduction during the event. If they suddenly give direct introduction halfway through the event, can I choose not to receive it and thus not receive samaya commitments? This is the first time I've had the opportunity to see a teacher like this, so I'm very excited, but I don't want samaya.
in dzogchen state there is no samaya, you can even throw dharma away
in dzogchen practice the samaya is try to stay in contemplation whatever happens, that's all
in dzogchen teachings the samaya is the relative commitements that we take, like "samaya gya gya gya"

i don't understant more than this

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Vasana
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by Vasana » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:54 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Boomerang wrote:I'm going to an event with a Dzogchen teacher tomorrow. I know the teaching will be related to The Flight of the Garuda, but beyond that I don't know anything. More to the point, I don't know if they're going to give direct introduction during the event. If they suddenly give direct introduction halfway through the event, can I choose not to receive it and thus not receive samaya commitments? This is the first time I've had the opportunity to see a teacher like this, so I'm very excited, but I don't want samaya.
in dzogchen state there is no samaya, you can even throw dharma away
in dzogchen practice the samaya is try to stay in contemplation whatever happens, that's all
in dzogchen teachings the samaya is the relative commitements that we take, like "samaya gya gya gya"

i don't understant more than this
If you're not in the natural state in any given moment, you still need to know what conduct is appropriate and what is inappropriate and what conduct is conducive to the path and what conduct isn't. It's good to be cautious about samaya since it's deterioration will only delay realization.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:15 pm

Vasana wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Boomerang wrote:I'm going to an event with a Dzogchen teacher tomorrow. I know the teaching will be related to The Flight of the Garuda, but beyond that I don't know anything. More to the point, I don't know if they're going to give direct introduction during the event. If they suddenly give direct introduction halfway through the event, can I choose not to receive it and thus not receive samaya commitments? This is the first time I've had the opportunity to see a teacher like this, so I'm very excited, but I don't want samaya.
in dzogchen state there is no samaya, you can even throw dharma away
in dzogchen practice the samaya is try to stay in contemplation whatever happens, that's all
in dzogchen teachings the samaya is the relative commitements that we take, like "samaya gya gya gya"

i don't understant more than this
If you're not in the natural state in any given moment, you still need to know what conduct is appropriate and what is inappropriate and what conduct is conducive to the path and what conduct isn't. It's good to be cautious about samaya since it's deterioration will only delay realization.
True

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conebeckham
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by conebeckham » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:03 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Boomerang wrote:
The 27 dzogchen samayas and the stuff in Avagosha's 50 stanzas of guru devotion.
I think there is no cause for alarm. You do not need to "believe" or "Adhere" to that which you do not subscribe to.....
I'm not sure I understand your reply. Maybe you can clarify a bit. If someone receives DI, aren't the samayas part of the practice of Dzogchen?
The "samayas" of the lower vehicles are not taken merely by receiving "direct introduction" or "pointing out." Those samayas--the samayas of the five families, etc., are very much related to the practices of the Niruttaratantra or Mahayoga and below. If one understands and "gets" DI, the real samaya is to strive to maintain Rigpa, and this is the ultimate Guru. But if you don't truly get this, then there's no samaya involved, anyway, as you can't strive to maintain something you have no knowledge of....

Having said that, I don't know if Lama Lena gives empowerments with associated samayas, so it would be best to ask. But with regard to taking teachings, including transmission, the most important thing is to respect one's guru, and this should come naturally if one truly grasps the significance of the teachings.

"Samayas" as a moral code, or "rules" to be kept, really applies for those of us engaged in specific sadhanas and practices.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

AlexanderS
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by AlexanderS » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:30 pm

Boomerang wrote:I'm going to an event with a Dzogchen teacher tomorrow. I know the teaching will be related to The Flight of the Garuda, but beyond that I don't know anything. More to the point, I don't know if they're going to give direct introduction during the event. If they suddenly give direct introduction halfway through the event, can I choose not to receive it and thus not receive samaya commitments? This is the first time I've had the opportunity to see a teacher like this, so I'm very excited, but I don't want samaya.
Not abiding in the natural state is the samaya break. Everyone is breaking samaya, non buddhists too. It's only by indtroduction & stability in recognition of the natural state that we have the oppourtunity not to break samaya.

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conebeckham
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by conebeckham » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:35 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Boomerang wrote:I'm going to an event with a Dzogchen teacher tomorrow. I know the teaching will be related to The Flight of the Garuda, but beyond that I don't know anything. More to the point, I don't know if they're going to give direct introduction during the event. If they suddenly give direct introduction halfway through the event, can I choose not to receive it and thus not receive samaya commitments? This is the first time I've had the opportunity to see a teacher like this, so I'm very excited, but I don't want samaya.
Not abiding in the natural state is the samaya break. Everyone is breaking samaya, non buddhists too. It's only by indtroduction & stability in recognition of the natural state that we have the oppourtunity not to break samaya.
Non Buddhists cannot break samaya, because they do not have samaya.
It is only by Introduction that one has the samaya you speak of, regarding abiding in the natural state.
In the same way, it is only by taking abhisheka in some tantric system that one has those corresponding samayas as well.

With regard to Ashvagosha's advice regarding gurus, and devotion, you cannot have devotion to someone you have not taken teachings with, and the only way to examine a teacher is to listen to that teacher's teaching. You can then decide if you wish to follow that teacher, and maintain the view of the guru as Buddha, etc. You cannot decide this without inspecting the teacher, and that means going to the teachings.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

climb-up
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by climb-up » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:31 am

I guess this already passed and you already either went or didn't and already rejected DI or didn't, but I am very curious...

...why would you attend dzogchen teachings if you so steadfastly don't want to practice dzogchen that you would want to refuse it's introduction?

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Malcolm
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:17 am

Boomerang wrote:Ibut I don't want samaya.
Then you should not go.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:18 am

Anonymous X wrote:[If someone receives DI, aren't the samayas part of the practice of Dzogchen?
Of course. People who think otherwise do not understand Dzogchen.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by pael » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:[If someone receives DI, aren't the samayas part of the practice of Dzogchen?
Of course. People who think otherwise do not understand Dzogchen.
Is samaya from DI practice of Guruyoga?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:22 pm

You can accept and reject anything you want to, now where that course of action will lead you, is another story.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Malcolm
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:03 pm

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:[If someone receives DI, aren't the samayas part of the practice of Dzogchen?
Of course. People who think otherwise do not understand Dzogchen.
Is samaya from DI practice of Guruyoga?

Samaya comes with any empowerment. If someone does not want to receive a commitment, they should not attend teachings where commitments are incumbent.

My response is was prompted by a misconception that some people have that they can attend an empowerment or a Dzogchen teaching without making a vajra relationship with that teacher. It is not possible.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Mantrik
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Of course. People who think otherwise do not understand Dzogchen.
Is samaya from DI practice of Guruyoga?

Samaya comes with any empowerment. If someone does not want to receive a commitment, they should not attend teachings where commitments are incumbent.

My response is was prompted by a misconception that some people have that they can attend an empowerment or a Dzogchen teaching without making a vajra relationship with that teacher. It is not possible.
It is sometimes said that Dzogchen Guruyoga satisfies all samayas. I recall reading that HHDL thinks so and practices accordingly. Do all Vajrayana masters accept that or is it more a case that all Dzogchen masters accept that?
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Malcolm
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Re: Can I reject direct introduction?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:40 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote: Is samaya from DI practice of Guruyoga?

Samaya comes with any empowerment. If someone does not want to receive a commitment, they should not attend teachings where commitments are incumbent.

My response is was prompted by a misconception that some people have that they can attend an empowerment or a Dzogchen teaching without making a vajra relationship with that teacher. It is not possible.
It is sometimes said that Dzogchen Guruyoga satisfies all samayas. I recall reading that HHDL thinks so and practices accordingly. Do all Vajrayana masters accept that or is it more a case that all Dzogchen masters accept that?
Pretty much every tradition accepts that Guru Yoga is the most important practice in which all samayas can be maintained.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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