I am pretty sure they do.michaelb wrote: I hope people don't judge the Buddha by what people write on Dharmawheel.
/magnus
I am pretty sure they do.michaelb wrote: I hope people don't judge the Buddha by what people write on Dharmawheel.
I looked at that thread and I was probably mistaken because I didn't see the references to Dzogchen, it looked more like it was about Harris' political views.Johnny Dangerous wrote:We've discussed this in depth here, here's the old (locked by me for now) thread if you're interested:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=14791&start=340
I have to say I find it hilarious that there are people on his forums fretting because they can't find "secular" Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachers, i've actually read through some of those threads.Also, he has a forum where people talk about how they want to learn Dzogchen, but don't want all that religion crap. What do you think about Harris encouraging this sort of modern truth-seeking? I'm on the fence (as usual).
In one of them a guy goes off because he was following some teaching and the teacher mentions the central channel and chakras, which he just couldn't abide. Really, how could someone like that reasonably approach Vajrayana or Dzogchen teachings? They couldn't. A view of the body and reality that they regard as 'superstition' is at the core of Vajrayana, it's not possible to approach as just some "techniques", which is what these people want.
I mean it's good that he presents the teachings in a positive light, but arming a bunch of young "new atheists" with certain biases *and* interest in a philosophy that simply can't ever meet their expectations can only lead to one thing:
A bunch of bad 'secular Dzogchen' books...oh man let's hope not.
I also dislike the guys politics pretty deeply, but I figure it's best if we stay off that given past experience.
For the purpose of having a discussion which may be informative.Aryjna wrote:What does it matter what Sam Harris thinks or says. There is no reason to read his books as there are books written by qualified lamas available.
But that would require reading his stuff first. If there is no motivation or possibility of actually learning from his writings, it is a waste of time to read them just to criticize him, and more than that it can be counterproductive.TharpaChodron wrote:For the purpose of having a discussion which may be informative.Aryjna wrote:What does it matter what Sam Harris thinks or says. There is no reason to read his books as there are books written by qualified lamas available.
Plus, I could learn something about how other practitioners view Dzogchen by hearing their opinion regarding his take on taking it out of the context of Vajrayana Buddhism.
I first learned about Sam Harris years ago when I was a volunteer reviewer for the Shambhala Sun magazine, and he wrote an article about getting rid of Buddhism in the mag which I read and reviewed. I then knew someone who was a fan of his and told me how much I should read his book Waking Up. Since Harris speaks on a topic that's dear to my heart, I did take note. It is probably a waste of time, but well, I confess I am guilty.Aryjna wrote:But that would require reading his stuff first. If there is no motivation or possibility of actually learning from his writings, it is a waste of time to read them just to criticize him, and more than that it can be counterproductive.TharpaChodron wrote:For the purpose of having a discussion which may be informative.Aryjna wrote:What does it matter what Sam Harris thinks or says. There is no reason to read his books as there are books written by qualified lamas available.
Plus, I could learn something about how other practitioners view Dzogchen by hearing their opinion regarding his take on taking it out of the context of Vajrayana Buddhism.
I am not saying I am against this thread, just saying that I personally would never read anything of his.
I'm not accusing anyone who has read him of course. It's natural to read various things under the right circumstances. But I don't feel right reading seriously anything that is not either an original text, or commentary by an accomplished master. I don't see how someone who is not very far along the path can teach, and even more alter the teachings significantly, with a good result.TharpaChodron wrote: I first learned about Sam Harris years ago when I was a volunteer reviewer for the Shambhala Sun magazine, and he wrote an article about getting rid of Buddhism in the mag which I read and reviewed. I then knew someone who was a fan of his and told me how much I should read his book Waking Up. Since Harris speaks on a topic that's dear to my heart, I did take note. It is probably a waste of time, but well, I confess I am guilty.
So, you are wise.Aryjna wrote:I'm not accusing anyone who has read him of course. It's natural to read various things under the right circumstances. But I don't feel right reading seriously anything that is not either an original text, or commentary by an accomplished master. I don't see how someone who is not very far along the path can teach, and even more alter the teachings significantly, with a good result.TharpaChodron wrote: I first learned about Sam Harris years ago when I was a volunteer reviewer for the Shambhala Sun magazine, and he wrote an article about getting rid of Buddhism in the mag which I read and reviewed. I then knew someone who was a fan of his and told me how much I should read his book Waking Up. Since Harris speaks on a topic that's dear to my heart, I did take note. It is probably a waste of time, but well, I confess I am guilty.
Unfortunately not so I at least try to take care not to compound my ignorance.TharpaChodron wrote: So, you are wise.
michaelb wrote:It's hardly fair to judge Harris by what people say on his forums. I hope people don't judge the Buddha by what people write on Dharmawheel.Johnny Dangerous wrote: I have to say I find it hilarious that there are people on his forums fretting because they can't find "secular" Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachers, i've actually read through some of those threads.
Correct. But Harris has said enough to cast his understanding in doubt. (mic drop)michaelb wrote:It's hardly fair to judge Harris by what people say on his forums.Johnny Dangerous wrote: I have to say I find it hilarious that there are people on his forums fretting because they can't find "secular" Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachers, i've actually read through some of those threads.
The question wasn't his understanding but his attitude; whether he was being insincere and cynical, "like a musk deer hunter." I don't think he was. He seems to have had an ongoing relationship with Tulku Urgyen over the last five years of TUR's life. He valued what Tulku Urgyen taught him as the most valuable thing he has ever been taught and, whilst not setting himself up as a dzogchen teacher, has done his best to convey what he understood from what TUR and others taught him.Malcolm wrote:Correct. But Harris has said enough to cast his understanding in doubt. (mic drop)michaelb wrote:It's hardly fair to judge Harris by what people say on his forums.Johnny Dangerous wrote: I have to say I find it hilarious that there are people on his forums fretting because they can't find "secular" Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachers, i've actually read through some of those threads.
Mic drop!Malcolm wrote:Correct. But Harris has said enough to cast his understanding in doubt. (mic drop)michaelb wrote:It's hardly fair to judge Harris by what people say on his forums.Johnny Dangerous wrote: I have to say I find it hilarious that there are people on his forums fretting because they can't find "secular" Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachers, i've actually read through some of those threads.
I think there are two parts here.TharpaChodron wrote:
In "Words of My Perfect Teacher," Patrul Rinpoche said that some students are like musk deer hunters:
"Shallow-tongued men with evil natures
Approach the teacher as if he were a musk-deer.
Having extracted the musk, the perfect Dharma,
Full of joy, sneer at the samaya."
michaelb wrote:The question wasn't his understanding but his attitude; whether he was being insincere and cynical, "like a musk deer hunter." I don't think he was. He seems to have had an ongoing relationship with Tulku Urgyen over the last five years of TUR's life. He valued what Tulku Urgyen taught him as the most valuable thing he has ever been taught and, whilst not setting himself up as a dzogchen teacher, has done his best to convey what he understood from what TUR and others taught him.Malcolm wrote:Correct. But Harris has said enough to cast his understanding in doubt. (mic drop)michaelb wrote: It's hardly fair to judge Harris by what people say on his forums.
i wasn't able to be a part of the last S.H. conversation and was feeling left out.dzogchungpa wrote:Again with the Sam Harris thing? smh
OK, you're off the hook.TharpaChodron wrote:i wasn't able to be a part of the last S.H. conversation and was feeling left out.dzogchungpa wrote:Again with the Sam Harris thing? smh
maybe it is an ironic thing, some got inspired by his work to actually study Buddhism.
I also just like saying "musk deer hunter." Harris does certainly sneer at the Samaya. Is he evil? Perhaps Patrul Rinpoche was a bit harsh, but what do you expect from Patrul Rinpoche? "Old Ironside" they called him. i'm kidding there.
On separate occasions, my teacher also used to give numerous special instructions for exposing hidden faults, and I have added whatever I have been able to remember of these in the most appropriate places. Do not take them as a window through which to observe others' faults, but rather as a mirror for examining your own.
Is not Patrul Rinpoche saying that by discussing others faults it is an opportunity for you to examine your own?dzogchungpa wrote:OK, you're off the hook.TharpaChodron wrote:i wasn't able to be a part of the last S.H. conversation and was feeling left out.dzogchungpa wrote:Again with the Sam Harris thing? smh
maybe it is an ironic thing, some got inspired by his work to actually study Buddhism.
I also just like saying "musk deer hunter." Harris does certainly sneer at the Samaya. Is he evil? Perhaps Patrul Rinpoche was a bit harsh, but what do you expect from Patrul Rinpoche? "Old Ironside" they called him. i'm kidding there.
Anyway, since you seem to like WoMPT, let me point out the following passage from the conclusion:
On separate occasions, my teacher also used to give numerous special instructions for exposing hidden faults, and I have added whatever I have been able to remember of these in the most appropriate places. Do not take them as a window through which to observe others' faults, but rather as a mirror for examining your own.
No, he's saying to read the teachings about possible hidden faults and examine whether you have these faults rather than use the teachings to point out and discuss the faults of others.TharpaChodron wrote: Is not Patrul Rinpoche saying that by discussing others faults it is an opportunity for you to examine your own?
...so, then let's talk.