Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

michaelb wrote:
TharpaChodron wrote: Is not Patrul Rinpoche saying that by discussing others faults it is an opportunity for you to examine your own?
...so, then let's talk.
No, he's saying to read the teachings about possible hidden faults and examine whether you have these faults rather than use the teachings to point out and discuss the faults of others.

I personally see a good reason to examine and check the qualities of prospective teachers. Sharing information about bad teachers on a board like this can help unsuspecting people falling into bad situations. But, as I have said repeatedly, Sam Harris is not a dzogchen teacher and does not pretend to be a dzogchen teacher. Sniping at him serves no function other than to increase the ill-will in the world.

And I actually liked his book and think it could be a useful starting point for people interested in meditation.
He has not specifically taught Dzogchen no, but he has styled himself a teacher of Vipaysana, IIRC he even has a guided meditation CD out there somehwere.

As as student of TUR i'm sure he well knows he's not authorized to teach Dzogchen. I think it's silly to claim people are fixating on the faults of others by examining a public figure, and one who is outspoken in his own views no less. It would be one thing if we are essentializing him into a one thing or another, but all I am doing is criticizing his shotty writing and his existence as public intellectual.

This issue with how SH talks about Dzogchen is that he presents it as simply a "technique" that one can acquire..which pretty wrecks the whole project. His fans carry on this incorrect suggestion and seek around for "secular" Dzogchen or Vajrayana practice, which is a nonsensical category. So the way he is presenting these things has a direct bearing on his fans.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

Post by michaelb »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I think it's silly to claim people are fixating on the faults of others by examining a public figure
think it's silly to claim people are not fixating on the faults of others when they clearly are.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:This issue with how SH talks about Dzogchen is that he presents it as simply a "technique" that one can acquire..which pretty wrecks the whole project. His fans carry on this incorrect suggestion and seek around for "secular" Dzogchen or Vajrayana practice, which is a nonsensical category. So the way he is presenting these things has a direct bearing on his fans.
I don't agree with your description of how he talks about dzogchen. I don't think he does reduce it to a technique. He also doesn't talk about Vajrayana. I guess you included that because it fits in with your argument better than dzogchen.

One point I made was that a number of dzogchen teachers have said that it can be practiced by people of different religious backgrounds and the other yanas are not necessary. As I said, I'm sure I've read similar sentiments here.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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michaelb wrote:I don't agree with your description of how he talks about dzogchen. I don't think he does reduce it to a technique. He also doesn't talk about Vajrayana. I guess you included that because it fits in with your argument better than dzogchen.
No, I said it because his forums are full of people that know that Mahamudra is somehow associated with, or similar to Dzogchen, and so are also looking around for "secular" Mahamudra teachers. Don't go making assumptions like that, either one fits the argument.
One point I made was that a number of dzogchen teachers have said that it can be practiced by people of different religious backgrounds and the other yanas are not necessary. As I said, I'm sure I've read similar sentiments here.
Yeah, but that is different than trying to practice a religious/spiritual practice from an anti-religious background...in which case you end up with exactly what you have with Harris fans who are infatuated with Dzogchen - a bunch of people who can't accept 90% of the philosophical backdrop behind the "technique" they are trying to learn, but don't understand that particularly with Dzogchen or Vajrayana, the "technique" is largely inseparable from the philosophy.

I have no idea how you can think he doesn't reduce them to techniques, he goes out of his way to put down what he perceives as the "religious" and in many cases philosophical background behind meditation, and specifically states in many places that the technique itself can be divorced from that stuff. I don't relish the idea of pouring through more of his writings, but if you insist I can find quotes for you.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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Here are some quick examples, these took no time at all to dig up, and if you read more of his stuff on meditation, you can find lots more of this sort of thing:
Sam Harris wrote:. There are, in fact, many methods of meditation and “spiritual” inquiry that can greatly enhance our well being without requiring that we believe anything on insufficient evidence.
Sam Harris wrote:Even an organization like Transcendental Meditation (TM), which has spent decades self-consciously adapting itself for use by non-Hindus, can’t overcome the fact that its students must be given a Sanskrit mantra as the foundation of the practice. Ancient incantations present an impediment to many a rational mind
Sam Harris wrote:It is true that many contemplative paths ask one to entertain unfounded ideas about the nature of reality—or at the very least, to develop a fondness for the iconography and cultural artifacts of one or another religion.
Taken from:

https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/how-to-meditate

I know this is not Dzogchen specific, but it encompasses his overall approach to meditation, and clearly illustrates that indeed, he seeks "techniques" free of what he considers to be their religious baggage.

Anyway, no one can actually practice Dzogchen with the above philosophy, in fact I don't even know why someone would be interested in Dzogchen that would only see it as a mere mental enhancement of some too sort. Well scratch that, the reason they would be interested in that Sam Harris recommends it as such, and describe it not in terms of a profound philosophy and practice, but as a better "tool" than gradual meditation. Again, you can just look for passages from his book Waking Up if you want more examples.

He writes a lot about anatta, but like most secular Buddhists, his idea of anatta is actually a form of nihilism, and accords with what is written by people like Daniel Dennet, more than Dharma.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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I can't be bothered to look back through (or listen, as I had it on Audible) Waking Up, but my recollection is that Harris saw dzogchen and the teachings he received from Tulku Urgyen and others as the most important things he has ever been taught by anybody. He said that in a short space of time TUR showed him what he had spent years trying to find with vipassana and advaita.
He says that the knowledge he gained is accessible to anyone but it requires an authentic teacher to point it out or introduce it.
I know people can quibble about terminology but his description and explanation was very close to those of authentic dzogchen teachers (i linked videos in the previous thread) and, as such, any criticism of Harris' presentation of dzogchen can equally be levelled at them.
I've no wish to rehash the discussion we had before but i would be interested in people's opinions on the idea of dzogchen less married to Buddhist concepts and beliefs. What philosophical concepts do you think you need to believe in in order to practise dzogchen?
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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michaelb wrote:What philosophical concepts do you think you need to believe in in order to practise dzogchen?
I have it on good authority that belief is useless so, presumably, the correct answer is none. :smile:
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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michaelb wrote:I can't be bothered to look back through (or listen, as I had it on Audible) Waking Up, but my recollection is that Harris saw dzogchen and the teachings he received from Tulku Urgyen and others as the most important things he has ever been taught by anybody. He said that in a short space of time TUR showed him what he had spent years trying to find with vipassana and advaita.
He says that the knowledge he gained is accessible to anyone but it requires an authentic teacher to point it out or introduce it.
I know people can quibble about terminology but his description and explanation was very close to those of authentic dzogchen teachers (i linked videos in the previous thread) and, as such, any criticism of Harris' presentation of dzogchen can equally be levelled at them.
I've no wish to rehash the discussion we had before but i would be interested in people's opinions on the idea of dzogchen less married to Buddhist concepts and beliefs. What philosophical concepts do you think you need to believe in in order to practise dzogchen?
Well, not seeing the tradition which Dzogchen is the pinnacle of (Mahayana Buddhism) as a bunch of superstitions is a good start.

Can you respond to the bits I quoted? How is someone who believes that most of "religious Buddhism"is nonsense supposed to contextualize Dzogchen teachings? Harris can say what he wants about the importance of TUR teachings to his own life, i have no quibble with his lived experience, and can respect it. Nonetheless, when someone believes that most of what is taught in Buddhism is nonsense (rebirth, karma, the status of what "Buddha" even means), I would argue there is no way for them to accommodate Dzogchen or Vajrayana really. At the very least, they have to let go a bit of their rigid anti-religion rhetoric...else it is, in fact, just another "technique" to collect in order to be a better humanist, atheist, what have you.

They are "practicing Dzogchen" in the same sense that a MBSR practitioner is "practicing Buddhism"..that is to say, not really - whatever the purported benefits may or may not be.
dzogchungpa wrote:
michaelb wrote:What philosophical concepts do you think you need to believe in in order to practise dzogchen?
I have it on good authority that belief is useless so, presumably, the correct answer is none. :smile:
That is nonsense, and I think you know it. ChNN did not make the argument that you should, for instance, not study Precious Vase because religion is nonsense..please, let's not mis-characterize those words. Similar words on tradition and it's misapprehension have been said by other great Dzogchen teachers, but in those cases they are not simply saying "hey throw the baby out with the bathwater, go ahead, you'll end up with the same thing."

Near as I can tell, what Harris means by 'practicing Dzogchen' is actually just practicing shamatha without an object, nothing wrong with it, it's probably a great approach from people who are sick of years of "follow your breath", austere attitudes towards meditation, or body scan meditations getting them nowhere...but let's be clear, Dzogchen is not just a set of techniques.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

Post by dzogchungpa »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
michaelb wrote:What philosophical concepts do you think you need to believe in in order to practise dzogchen?
I have it on good authority that belief is useless so, presumably, the correct answer is none. :smile:
That is nonsense, and I think you know it.
Well, I don't really know anything about Dzogchen, being a mere dzogchungpa and all, but I think the quote here:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 56#p372456 is relevant. Seriously.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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dzogchungpa wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
I have it on good authority that belief is useless so, presumably, the correct answer is none. :smile:
That is nonsense, and I think you know it.
Well, I don't really know anything about Dzogchen, being a mere dzogchungpa and all, but I think the quote here:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 56#p372456 is relevant. Seriously.
So what?

The issue at hand is not whether the knowledge of Dzogchen is beyond concepts, nor even whether Harris received introduction and felt it was meaningful (it certainly seems he did), but whether Harris' presentation does it justice, or is an attempt to cannibalize parts of it for his humanist etc. philosophy.

Stop misappropriating quotes as if Thinley Norbu or ChNN are telling people to reject all tradition, that is dishonest.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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I've heard him interviewed a few times, haven't read his books. My sense of him is that his projects are partly well intentioned attempts to share his version of dharma. Partly a matter of furthering his career and image. He seems to be overall part of the picture of Buddhism in the West, and "secular" versions of the teachings. It's not for me, but it's possible it will lead to some positive ripple effects.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote:Stop misappropriating quotes as if Thinley Norbu or ChNN are telling people to reject all tradition, that is dishonest.
Well, I wasn't suggesting that either of those teachers say to reject all tradition. It is good to keep the "beyond limitations" thing in mind though. It really means something.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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dzogchungpa wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Stop misappropriating quotes as if Thinley Norbu or ChNN are telling people to reject all tradition, that is dishonest.
Well, I wasn't suggesting that either of those teachers say to reject all tradition. It is good to keep the "beyond limitations" thing in mind though. It really means something.

Do you think Sam Harris presentation of Dzogchen presents it as beyond limitations? It seems if anything, the opposite.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Stop misappropriating quotes as if Thinley Norbu or ChNN are telling people to reject all tradition, that is dishonest.
Well, I wasn't suggesting that either of those teachers say to reject all tradition. It is good to keep the "beyond limitations" thing in mind though. It really means something.

Do you think Sam Harris presentation of Dzogchen presents it as beyond limitations? It seems if anything, the opposite.
I don't even know about his presentation of Dzogchen, honestly, but I assume it's all messed up. Nevertheless, if he gets people excited about Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and Dzogchen and points them to real teachers like Mingyur Rinpoche and Tsoknyi Rinpoche, I think that's great.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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dzogchungpa wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Well, I wasn't suggesting that either of those teachers say to reject all tradition. It is good to keep the "beyond limitations" thing in mind though. It really means something.

Do you think Sam Harris presentation of Dzogchen presents it as beyond limitations? It seems if anything, the opposite.
I don't even know about his presentation of Dzogchen, honestly, but I assume it's all messed up. Nevertheless, if he gets people excited about Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and Dzogchen and points them to real teachers like Mingyur Rinpoche and Tsoknyi Rinpoche, I think that's great.
That is great, I agree.

I think if you look at his forums though, it's a different story, and appears to be a bunch of people who could never hack actually learning under Tsoknyi Rinpoche or Mingyur rinpoche, due to how closely they hold their atheism to their chest. I have friends who are their students, I can't imagine most of the people interested in "secular Dzogchen" trying to do a Vajrasattva practice for instance.

Maybe it's like most tings, where there is now a "two track" system for people who are willing to go deeper, and those who just want a brief taste of meditation.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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A lot of what he says goes back to the idea that there is an element of 'non-religious truth' in Buddhism, which is comparable to science, in some senses, but which has become distorted by its association with Asian cultural influences, including belief in after-life states, deities, and the like.

It is comparable to the 'protestant Buddhism' of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, where Rhys Davids, the founder of the Pali text society, saw the Pali texts as being 'pristine' Buddhism, prior to it's 'corruption' by 'lama-ism'. In this he was very influenced by Protestant attitudes to Christianity, which saw 'the 'Gospel' as a pristine form of Christianity, prior to its corruption by the Catholic Church.

In the secular Buddhist view, there is a core of truth in Buddhism (and other yogic traditions) grounded in genuine insight giving rise to liberation through understanding of the 'inner science' of meditation. However this has become associated with many other elements from Asian religious traditions, specifically belief in after-death states and re-birth, which is anathema (pardon the irony) to secularism of all forms. That gives rise to the kind of 'existentialist' interpretation of Sunyata as being a kind of 'authentic existence' or 'inner freedom' - but it is not depicted in terms of 'transcending worldly existence' which is (in my view) intrinsic to Buddhism.

David Brazier's recent book 'Buddhism is a Religion' is a series of essays protesting the 'secularisation' of Buddhism.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

Post by Malcolm »

Wayfarer wrote:
David Brazier's recent book 'Buddhism is a Religion' is a series of essays protesting the 'secularisation' of Buddhism.
Yes, this trend will destroy the Dharma.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

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michaelb wrote:I can't be bothered to look back through (or listen, as I had it on Audible) Waking Up, but my recollection is that Harris saw dzogchen and the teachings he received from Tulku Urgyen and others as the most important things he has ever been taught by anybody. He said that in a short space of time TUR showed him what he had spent years trying to find with vipassana and advaita.
That is 100% true.
It's also true that this thread is questioning wether or not he qualifies as a metaphorical 'musk deer hunter' and, as Malcolm pointed out, a musk deer hunter surely finds the musk to be very important, exactly what he's been looking for!

Sam Harris does say that people should find a qualified teacher (while releasing guided meditations meant with dzogchen themes), but he simultaneously warns them that they will have to wade through rivers of religious and metaphysical garbage (my paraphrase of his metaphor, but close) endnote to take them seriously. I could be wrong, but I think at some points in either one go his books or podcasts, that some westerners will actually get taken in by the eastern metaphysics.

As Johnny Dangerous points out, Sam Harris does not operate without limitations. As a reductionist-materialistnnew-aetheist he has very strong, automatic limitations and very strong metaphysical beliefs. He has more than once refused to debate scientists regarding NDE or psi research, despite not knowing the literature or even the particulars in question because, as an atheist materialist he already 'knows' that it couldn't be true.
This, along with his views on Islam (which ARE gross) and politics is an example of the type of thinking that he instills in his fans and are at least questionable (IMO) for sincere practitioners.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

Post by KristenM »

Just questioning someone's ideas, especially a published author, isn't contradictory to the process of examining one's own mind and wisdom obscurations, which is an inherent part of good Buddhist practice. i think it can help better elucidate one's own misconceptions and convictions to study and discuss ideas different than one's own.

I brought the topic up as a genuine question that I think has value. And I've actually enjoyed reading the responses from all differing perspectives.

if we can't discuss whether Dzogchen can be taken out of its Buddhist religious context, why not? this isn't about Sam Harris, to me, it's really a "big picture" question.
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

dzogchungpa wrote:
michaelb wrote:What philosophical concepts do you think you need to believe in in order to practise dzogchen?
I have it on good authority that belief is useless so, presumably, the correct answer is none. :smile:
Also on the same good authority, I'd like to nominate the following idea/belief/view:
ChNN wrote:A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits...(edit)...Dzogchen is a principle of the teachings, a key for transcending our limitations.
"Dzog Chen and Zen" p,16
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2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
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Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Sam Harris, Musk Deer Hunter?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Some variation of this subject - basically how mainstream Western culture will approach the Dharma-, comes up in my meatspace Dharma life constantly. I'm willing to bet the same is true for any other practitioners who ever interact with an extended group of Buddhists beyond close brothers and sisters, who we often tend to agree with. It comes up if you interact with non-Buddhists too, who are curious.

Point it is, I think it's a valid conversation and in my opinion we should avoid using cliches and platitudes in order to shut down the other side. No more "focus on your own faults" (or whatever the other sides version is) stuff.

We may regularly overstep our bounds, fail to take into account the other persons views fully, but acting like it's not a valid conversation is a bad thing. The overall theme here is actually one of the biggest concerns right now in Dharma within Western culture...so as Tharpachodron says, this isn't really about Sam Harris.
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