Dzogchen View on Soma

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lee
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Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by lee »

I have been wondering this since i became interested in Dzogchen, I have a fairly good understanding of Soma and it's history, i also see a lot of mixed views regarding the subject.

In terms of Soma, i know it was used as a tool for enlightenment, very sacred plants would be used to gain access to higher understanding and heighten the experience for practices leading to enlightenment. I understand both the positive and negative effects of it ( that i do not really wish to discuss )

What i'm interested in is, the Dzogchen view on it, if one has the capacity and the right intention of using such sacred plants as a realistic goal to reach higher levels of practice, is that seen as positive or negative? positive being the intention and beneficial effects, negative being the possibility of losing ones self-control.

Let's say for example i wish to use cubensis psilocybe, not for the basis of enlightenment, but as a tool to break down the ego and develop deeper practice in the tantra systems, is that ok to do or not? In an ideal condition, i stayed focused, not becoming attached to the manifestation of the substance, but rather had a deeper look into myself and gained a deeper understanding of me and my practices through the experience.

Not looking at this on a new age point of view, but rather the shown beneficial effects these things can have on an individual, could that itself replace chod to a person who has the capacity to handle it.

Talking from my own experience, i had cubensis a few years ago, had a very profound experience, afterwards not only was my mentality a lot better, but also my ability to practice became deeper, although these effects do not last, they gave me a good boost in my practices that had stayed at that level even after the effects had worn off.

Although the effects had worn off at the mentality side of things, a lot of things stayed the same, i stopped smoking at the point of the experience and had really let go of attachments, this has lasted to today, the mental side that i speak of is repetitive thought and general happiness, for a while i had no thoughts at all i was able to process things very well without seeming to think about it nor did i ever become trapped by songs in the mind and the happiness of it was fairly pleasant as no matter what i had a positive outcome. Those aspects of it i did not continue to develop and keep so maybe thats why they had manifested back to their original state.

But anyway, the point is, what is the view on it if one has the capacity to use it to a realistic and positive advantage?
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by jkarlins »

I'm not a Dzogchen practitioner at this point. I have taken mushrooms many times, although it's been a while (back around college).

This has been discussed here before, I think. I'll leave it to others to kindly post links to old threads, if they like. Along with the usual comments about "we've already discussed this" etc. :smile:

Do you have a sangha or teacher you practice with occasionally? I found that beyond the effects of psychedelics, this made the biggest difference for my practice.

:thanks:
lee
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by lee »

jkarlins wrote:I'm not a Dzogchen practitioner at this point. I have taken mushrooms many times, although it's been a while (back around college).

This has been discussed here before, I think. I'll leave it to others to kindly post links to old threads, if they like. Along with the usual comments about "we've already discussed this" etc. :smile:

Do you have a sangha or teacher you practice with occasionally? I found that beyond the effects of psychedelics, this made the biggest difference for my practice.

:thanks:
Hi, thank you for sharing, i am about to have my transmission for the teachings, i do not have any teacher as of yet, but i will be joining the santi maha sangha course in london next year.

i think in terms of soma, i think it's a big taboo in many aspects, some say that it blinds the mind because what is presented is not real, in my view i feel it's a good tool for recognising the current situation, what seems real is not. Soma is you could say a projection of one's situation, just like samsara.

although through the substance you gain beneficial effects during and beyond.

I find it interesting because what seems to be true for many teachings, including dzogchen, is time and culture has a huge role to play in the practices developed, secondary not primary. The effects seem to be the same but approached through various ways, i know that in daoist practices the master will remove the ego attachments through transmission, the same effects as chod but done through transmission, would it not be that such sacred plants could be used in the same way, to have the same outcome but through a different means.
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by jkarlins »

Glad to hear you're getting transmission. That is great news. I'm happy that you're a member of this discussion group!
lee
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by lee »

jkarlins wrote:Glad to hear you're getting transmission. That is great news. I'm happy that you're a member of this discussion group!
Thank you very much! it's a very exciting time! I'm happy to be on here, finding the help excellent! Very thankful to have found such a welcoming forum with many practitioners with such experience.
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by climb-up »

Here is my real answer: I have absolutely no idea whatsoever.

Further thoughts:
Like many passing interests that I have not kept up on, I may be behind, but are using "soma" to mean psychoactive drugs in general, or are saying that "soma" as mentioned in the vedas etc. is specifically known now. I was under the impression that it was mostly best guesses.

My guess would be that if you were going to take psychoactive substances tenth practice would be to remain undistracted in guruyoga, like with anything else.
There are practices in dzogchen that deal with visions, but my understanding is that they are dangerous because it so easy to mistake the visions for reality. ChNN strongly recommends that his students not even read about Thogal unless they are very well established in contemplation and then come and learn it from him personally. So, I have no knowledge or experience with this.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
lee
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by lee »

Yes the use of psychoactive substances, mushrooms to be more specific.

I don't think they could be used as a secondary for GuruYoga as such, but as a practice for ego break downs, they show very promising effects talking from both my first-hand experience and the research that's recently been going on.

They seem to have a reset button quality, personally for me iv never really felt that they heighten the meditative experience as such, but rather able you to be deeper into it.

Things such as GuruYoga, id rather do properly and use the secondary practices as suggested, but as for ego an attachment practices, i think it could even be a replacement for chod ( for some people with that matched circumstance )

I completely agree with you there, iv read many stories of people becoming very attached to the experience, taking in what they have during it as real, i think if one is able to stay focused, understand that it only a projection of the mind and it's complexity, then with the right intention, could be a very fast way of removing unwanted attachments that are hard to break from, as well as boosting the capacity to endure higher quality secondary tantra practices.

They are a very complex and in most terms misunderstood substance, although deemed as not being a real experience, some people ( including myself ) have had shared experiences, the same trip effects at the same time experiencing in the same form of trip reality, i think theirs a huge difference between synthetic and natural ready to go substances, during a mushroom experience you will experience patterns, shapes shifting, wave of vibration and most of the time the patterns are actually in sacred geometric form, the time distortion is a big one, almost all people seem to share that at the same time. Unlike what people say it's not like you are going into something then having a manifestation of a cartoon appear in the room, it's a very complex structure behind it

Could it possibly be that the experiences are real as such but only when such amount of ego breakdown has taken place are you able to experience it, i think although not all of it is real as such, it's very complicated to just discard it when people have the same real time experiences, either some experiences are real or the ego breaks down that much that the experiences are shared telepathically.
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by madhusudan »

Most standard teachings advise against any form of intoxication. If that's not good enough, explore any mind altering substance in depth to find the answer yourself.
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by Virgo »

lee wrote: if one has the capacity and the right intention of using such sacred plants as a realistic goal to reach higher levels of practice, is that seen as positive or negative?
Negative. In Dzogchen you do not need any substances, what you need is knowledge. For having knowledge, you should go to a teacher.

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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by Aryjna »

ChNNR says in 'Longchenpa's Advice from the Heart' that drugs are bad in general, and that according to Padmasambhava they make one passive and expose him/her to all kinds of negativities.
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

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i wish some open-minded lamas like Dzongsar Khyentse would take mushrooms or lsd to give their opinion about those substances.

i guess substances like lsd or psilocybin doesn't fall into drug/itoxicants category. physically they are safe and mentally they hold many benefits. it's not uncommon to read something like "Psilocybin produces substantial and sustained decreases in depression and anxiety in patients with life-threatening cancer: A randomized double-blind trial". Also, when you read something like "this set of fears and aspirations is your personality" or "i was crying and i saw myself from aside and it looked like a tiny human which have been running on different floors and corridors self-concerned and anxious of its own tiny needs. i watched myself from aside and saw clearly that this is waste of time and efforts, that my true self is much bigger than this tiny human" you see that it's not about getting drugged and foggy. people report life changing things.

now, when it comes to dharma practice i remember Tenzin Palmo once said that too many people deceive themselves about taking psychedelics: on the surface they think they do them for spiritual growth while in reality they ened up abusing them and do them just as an entertainment.

personally i think if you truly start practice dharma you need to put all other things aside. from that moment on your practice is the tool to those state. psychedelics are useful tools as well but the states they produce are temporary. it doesn't take much efforts to put a blotter in your mouth, but it does take lots of efforts to finish 100000 prostrations or just sit there with your mind still, silent and undisturbed. the outcome of sincere dharma practice will be with you always though.
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by conebeckham »

yagmort wrote:i wish some open-minded lamas like Dzongsar Khyentse would take mushrooms or lsd to give their opinion about those substances.
Some have. They don't like to publicize, in general--I imagine there are many reasons for this.
i guess substances like lsd or psilocybin doesn't fall into drug/itoxicants category. physically they are safe and mentally they hold many benefits. it's not uncommon to read something like "Psilocybin produces substantial and sustained decreases in depression and anxiety in patients with life-threatening cancer: A randomized double-blind trial". Also, when you read something like "this set of fears and aspirations is your personality" or "i was crying and i saw myself from aside and it looked like a tiny human which have been running on different floors and corridors self-concerned and anxious of its own tiny needs. i watched myself from aside and saw clearly that this is waste of time and efforts, that my true self is much bigger than this tiny human" you see that it's not about getting drugged and foggy. people report life changing things.
Psychedelics are most definitely intoxicants, drugs. Some are relatively harmless, some are quite dangerous. We honestly don't know what "Soma" is or was, but there are some indications in Tibetan texts about Datura/Jimsonweed, for instance, which is extremely dangerous and potentially fatal. This topic, BTW, has been done to death, IMO--do a search here.
now, when it comes to dharma practice i remember Tenzin Palmo once said that too many people deceive themselves about taking psychedelics: on the surface they think they do them for spiritual growth while in reality they ened up abusing them and do them just as an entertainment.

personally i think if you truly start practice dharma you need to put all other things aside. from that moment on your practice is the tool to those state. psychedelics are useful tools as well but the states they produce are temporary. it doesn't take much efforts to put a blotter in your mouth, but it does take lots of efforts to finish 100000 prostrations or just sit there with your mind still, silent and undisturbed. the outcome of sincere dharma practice will be with you always though.
The most "Altering" states I have personally experienced were due to intensive dharma practice. In my past, I've ingested a fairly wide variety of substances, (as have many of us), and had some pretty intense altered states. None compares in benefit to the lasting and wholesome effect of Dharma practice. Once one has entered the path of Practice, psychedelics are not advised.
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yagmort
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by yagmort »

conebeckham wrote:...Psychedelics are most definitely intoxicants, drugs...
respectfully disagree.

disregard the actual toxicity ie harmness of a substance for the body or its capacity to impair ethical values and discerment, i would simply say that intoxicant is the substance which effect takes you away from truth. in that regard psychedelics are total opposite.
i myself did not experience with them all that much. i've done lsd 3 times with only 1 of them what i consider to be 'breakthrough'. i've learned many unpleasant things about myself, among other things, like universal love. it seems quite common though that people report they got rid of bunch of lies or their illusions or misconceptions. of course someone elses mileage may vary.
perhaps we've got our definitions different, but to me that doesn't sound like anything toxic.
conebeckham wrote:...We honestly don't know what "Soma" is or was, but there are some indications in Tibetan texts about Datura/Jimsonweed, for instance, which is extremely dangerous and potentially fatal...
that is true but datura isn't triptamine psychedelic, they way it produces its effect is entirely different. a friend of mine once tried it in his late teens and he said he got nothing beneficial from it, just stupid actual hallucinations and extreme dry mouth and throat.

conebeckham wrote:...Once one has entered the path of Practice, psychedelics are not advised.
wholeheartedly agree
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by practitioner »

When I was in college a kid took acid and ended up jumping from a 10 story tower. Real harmless stuff huh?

And taking mushrooms/lsd does not get you closer to the truth, it just adds layers of delusion upon delusion. I like Cone's advise, once you have Dharma practice you don't need anything else.
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

My cutesy take on it is that it doesn't show you the answer, but it does show you how big the question really is.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by jkarlins »

A lot dharma practitioners start with it, but few keep coming back to it.

There are lots of reasons for this, some good, some just conventional.

For me, one big reason I don't use psychedelics again is that I worry that I'd lose some part of what I've worked hard to earn over years of practice. I wouldn't lose it all, but I might mess it up somehow.
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by yagmort »

practitioner wrote:When I was in college a kid took acid and ended up jumping from a 10 story tower. Real harmless stuff huh?
Man, this is like the archetypal scary story. I've heard it many times apllied to weed, mushrooms, lsd and what not. Is it reliable verified information or just some gossips?
I am not saying this is not possible, but first of all are you sure this was from lsd? I mean there was the actual police report after toxicology test which found lsd in his system? It is very said if it is so, but i am talking about concious and responsible application of psychedelics. My opinion is that a kid shouldn't take any mind altering substance in the first place, let alone do it at 10 floor with nobody watching.

I would really like to stress responsibilty here.
This is a common human fault: people just don't like to take responsibility for their actions. Whenever things go astray it is always something else to blaim. The road was wet, visibility was poor, weed is bad, lsd is bad, alcohol is bad... I don't believe there is any bad substance. Substances don't have their own will. So if someone ended up being alcoholic or any other drug abuser there is no need to talk that it is alcohol is bad or it is pot which is bad and shouldn't be legalized, or it is ..put anything you want here.. It is people who don't want to be responsible for the outcome of their actions. I myself have had an year and a half of amphetamine addiction when i was in my early twenties. Is it amphetamine which is so bad and so addictive? No, it was my decision to take it long enough to develop addiction and to instill its power over me. When i realised what kind of illusion i entangled myself with, the addiction has disappeared. This was like 10 years ago so i can safely say that i'm done with it.
practitioner wrote:And taking mushrooms/lsd does not get you closer to the truth, it just adds layers of delusion upon delusion.
you didn't experience it yourself, did you?
practitioner wrote: I like Cone's advise, once you have Dharma practice you don't need anything else.
so do i !
smcj wrote:My cutesy take on it is that it doesn't show you the answer, but it does show you how big the question really is.
you did experience it yourself, didn't you? :)
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by Adamantine »

yagmort wrote:
practitioner wrote:When I was in college a kid took acid and ended up jumping from a 10 story tower. Real harmless stuff huh?
Man, this is like the archetypal scary story. I've heard it many times apllied to weed, mushrooms, lsd and what not. Is it reliable verified information or just some gossips?
I am not saying this is not possible, but first of all are you sure this was from lsd? I mean there was the actual police report after toxicology test which found lsd in his system? It is very said if it is so, but i am talking about concious and responsible application of psychedelics. My opinion is that a kid shouldn't take any mind altering substance in the first place, let alone do it at 10 floor with nobody watching.

I would really like to stress responsibilty here.
This is a common human fault: people just don't like to take responsibility for their actions. Whenever things go astray it is always something else to blaim. The road was wet, visibility was poor, weed is bad, lsd is bad, alcohol is bad... I don't believe there is any bad substance. Substances don't have their own will. So if someone ended up being alcoholic or any other drug abuser there is no need to talk that it is alcohol is bad or it is pot which is bad and shouldn't be legalized, or it is ..put anything you want here.. It is people who don't want to be responsible for the outcome of their actions. I myself have had an year and a half of amphetamine addiction when i was in my early twenties. Is it amphetamine which is so bad and so addictive? No, it was my decision to take it long enough to develop addiction and to instill its power over me. When i realised what kind of illusion i entangled myself with, the addiction has disappeared. This was like 10 years ago so i can safely say that i'm done with it.
practitioner wrote:And taking mushrooms/lsd does not get you closer to the truth, it just adds layers of delusion upon delusion.
you didn't experience it yourself, did you?
practitioner wrote: I like Cone's advise, once you have Dharma practice you don't need anything else.
so do i !
smcj wrote:My cutesy take on it is that it doesn't show you the answer, but it does show you how big the question really is.
you did experience it yourself, didn't you? :)
You can easily verify a famous story like this: Richard Alpert (later to be known as Ram Dass) while regularly taking large doses of LSD in Millbrook NY with colleague and buddy Tim Leary
decided he could fly and climbed to the top of the mansion and leapt off. Fortunately for all of us who enjoyed his later influence as Ram Dass, he only broke his leg. It could have turned out much differently.

That said, people have leapt to their deaths under the influence of meditative experiences as well, (see here https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=25980
though I would presume this to be statistically much less likely.
Last edited by Adamantine on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dzogchen View on Soma

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

My cutesy take on it is that it doesn't show you the answer, but it does show you how big the question really is.
you did experience it yourself, didn't you? :)
Well yeah. My first trip freaked me out so bad I can still feel traces of it 40+ years later. That's what I meant by "how big the question is".

So what's your point?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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